VW Clean diesels.... how did they get them so clean?

[3930dave]

I spent 26 years as an engineer for US auto company including a stint in the emissions and fuel economy area. We had separate departments to develop emissions systems and to validate their performance. Compliance progress was tracked at the VP level. The suggestion that a few rogue engineers pulled this off is truly laughable.

Anyone who has worked in a structured engineering environment, or has had any business dealings with a German company would only consider this "rogue engineers" story as a load of garden fertilizer. Much of the general public here does not fall into those categories, so it's not surprising to see this spin being put out there.

Rgds, D.

 

[ultrarunner]

My limited experience is employees are more company oriented in Germany... the company plays a bigger roll outside of work... almost like was more common decades ago here... company sponsered sport teams, company social events and generations working for the same company and the older make sure the younger tow the line because it reflects on the family...

A little off topic..

I was working on an old 1937 motorcylcle and got it running over there on a friends farm... I was driving on the private property and was summoned to by a police officer... the officer said I was operating an unlicensed vehicle and I said it was on private property... the officer said the farm is across the county road saying I crossed the road and issued me a fine and demanded cash... which I did not have... so the officer directed me to the farm and my friend saw me and met us... the officer fined me $25 for operating and him $25 for letting me operate... my friend paid it... I protested.

Later he said it is best to just go along... this way there is receipt and that is the end of it... if I didn't pay... they would impound the motorcycle and a mandatory court date with a mandatory lawyer and it could easily cost $1500 and someone could have a suspended license for wasting the court's time...

My point is culture is not the same... and to an outsider what seems odd or wrong is business as normal... the American in me was ready to fight it and file a formal complaint against the officer for bribery for asking for and accepting cash... my friend said that could lead to jail time impugning the reputation of a police officer... something about questioning authority...

I can see a scenario where the engineering group says we have this great little performing car and our job is make it pass the US treadmill emission test... and that is exactly what they did... following the letter if not the spirit...

The real trouble is just starting as California DMV has said it will not renew non-compliant vehicles...

 

[truckdiagnostics]

Pockets for the lawyers keeps getting bigger. Bosch gets dragged in. Still maintain suing a company into oblivion is not the way to go. People working at plant in the US, dealership and car owners are the ones loosing. Fix the issue move on. Now being able to go after the individuals that made the decision that is a different story. Maybe the discovery on the law suit with Bosch will help that. Not likely one can still dream. Here is a link to brief article on what is going on.
Bosch Sued In Federal Court Over VW Role - Diesel Progress - December 2015

 

[truckdiagnostics]

Pockets for the lawyers keeps getting bigger. Bosch gets dragged in. Still maintain suing a company into oblivion is not the way to go. People working at plant in the US, dealership and car owners are the ones loosing. Fix the issue move on. Now being able to go after the individuals that made the decision that is a different story. Maybe the discovery on the law suit with Bosch will help that. Not likely one can still dream. Here is a link to brief article on what is going on.
Bosch Sued In Federal Court Over VW Role - Diesel Progress - December 2015

 

[JWR]

OK, this thread is already way beyond sensible record-setting lengths but I'll still offer these comments:
1) We have a 2013 Beetle TDI 6 speed stick that runs like a 1960's V8, gets 40 some MPG most of the time, drives like a fun buggy and is simply a great little vehicle in all regards.
2) The EPA is the most out of control, oppressive and holier than thou department in an otherwise lousy XXXXXL government. To whom do they justify their arbitrary "standards" ? NO ONE !!!
3) Anyone who makes the EPA look like the bunch of fools that they are should be given a medal. Kudos to VW even if it ruins their business for a while.
4) Think about it: How many TDI owners with cars that have outstanding performance and yet get high MPG are going to run right in and have them degraded in some recall? Duh !
5) I predict that the TDI recall will be the worst attended in the history of automotive recalls.
6) I also predict that low mileage TDI vehicles are going to skyrocket in value on the used car market for the next several years. Investors: Buy now! Buy now !

Yep, all 6 points are hereby reiterated AND now the smoking gun: See TIME, Nov. 30/Dec.7 combined issue. Article is "The Man who brought down Volkswagen." And pp.104 is the smoking gun that proves EPA is THE culprit in this entire topic. In the context of diesels "Only 0.01% of NOx emissions come from light duty cars." Case closed !!! Only an out of control idiot-based EPA would go through all of this bullying of an industry (forced to kiss their ring, no recourse) on the basis of what is One ten-thousandth of the NOx emissions ! Amounts to criminal malfeasance in the form of way beyond total lack of judgement. It could not be any more obvious that a responsible and accountable EPA would have labeled that segment of the industry NEGLIGIBLE. Forget it. Don't whiz away a dime on it. With that firmly in mind, think now, what is the excuse for the farm tractor industry being bullied into hideous mechanisms currently referred to as "Tier 4 compliance." What does this cost all of us? What is the benefit ? If light duty diesel cars are .01% of the total then farm tractors have to be a tiny % of that. So far below negligible it is immeasurable! Heavy diesel trucks are the primary sensible targets & EPA says so in the article. Common sense on what is negligible is however a foreign concept. And the world blames VW ? I sure don't.

 

[California]

I read somewhere that now that land vehicles have been cleaned up, it is the ocean freighters that bring us all that stuff from China that are the remaining cause for nearly all exhaust pollution.

But it would take worldwide treaties to change this, and that's not going to happen.

Anybody know more about this?

 

[dmccarty]

I read somewhere that now that land vehicles have been cleaned up, it is the ocean freighters that bring us all that stuff from China that are the remaining cause for nearly all exhaust pollution.

But it would take worldwide treaties to change this, and that's not going to happen.

Anybody know more about this?

remaining cause for nearly all exhaust pollution.

Might be pushing the idea a bit since ship traffic adds only 2.2% of the man made CO2 but I guess it depends on what is the meaning of "all exhaust pollution."

With Historic Paris Climate Agreement Adopted, Ship Emissions Fall in IMO'S Court - gCaptain

The EPA and the IMO have treaties the regulate boat and ship pollution. Some of these are reasonable, others, not so much.

For instance, MARPOL a convention covering vessel pollution, prohibits throwing away paper at sea, a tin can that will soon rust into nothing, and if in certain areas, one could get into trouble if one threw an eaten chicken bone over the side unless it was chopped into small pieces. One would also be in trouble if one fried said chicken and then tossed the used lard into the ocean. These regulations might make sense for ships with large number of people on board, oil rigs, cruise ships and naval vessels for instance, but they also apply to a itty bitty sail boat with one or two people on board where they make no sense at all.

MARPOL also covers diesel engine NOx and SOx emissions on vessels, including small privately owned boats. These regulations have increased fuel usage on the engines I have investigated and decreased reliability. At least for now, the EPA and MARPOL are not requiring DEF use in small boats by insisting on Tier 4 engines, which would really cause problems and decrease safety on small boats. The EPA did want this requirement but the industry and owners pushed back and the EPA saw some sense. BIG ship engines which are what really produce air pollution must meet Tier 4 standards which does make sense.

My understanding is that diesel engines were pushed in Europe over gas engines due to decreased CO2 emissions from diesel engines vs gas. As best I can tell, current MARPOL regulations are not concerned with CO2 but the world wide regulation structure is in place via MARPOL if one wanted to have a CO2 standard.

Later,
Dan

 

[MossRoad]

I read somewhere that now that land vehicles have been cleaned up, it is the ocean freighters that bring us all that stuff from China that are the remaining cause for nearly all exhaust pollution.

But it would take worldwide treaties to change this, and that's not going to happen.

Anybody know more about this?

Well, if its any consolation, look at this picture. On the left, all the sand color vehicles are HUMMERS destined for foreign governments. What is of interest is look at all the black dots on the lower right side around the factory. Those are American built Mercedes R-Class destined for sale in China.

 

[QRTRHRS]

Article I read today based on a German publication was that VW was facing buying back 100,000 cars. It also speculated that VW may have to sell off perhaps Audi? Or, even if VW will survive as a company or as a fraction of what they are today.

 

[3930dave]

OTOH, if you have the right connections and money, you can burn as much diesel as you want.... even in Cali

Catalina Island Blog: Catalina Island Electricity

As I understand it, an underwater cable power link was proposed (common, world-wide) way back. I'd estimate the distance at only 20 miles.

Some "environmental" group objected, so today diesel still gets barged over from the mainland. Obviously, those diesels spin 24x7x365.

Even in "dirty" mode, the tdi's being discussed likely run way cleaner than what blows over from Catalina....

Rgds, D.