Water heater recs please

[4570Man]

If you have a water recirculating pump like I do, tankless don’t work without some juryrigging a small standby tank or some such nonesence. I have twin 40 gal direct vents that are 10 years old, have replaced anode 2 times. Have another set sitting in WH room. I’m thinking about getting another pair of them and storing them because I don’t know what nanny state will do in near future with propane water heaters.i don’t want heat pump or elect units. Ive been called out to too many heat pump water heater failures over the years. And while elect units are ok, my standby isn’t large enough to add two elect water heaters to it.

I’ve installed tankless gas water heaters on new construction jobs that have factory supplied recirculating pumps. I like electric water heaters for the main reason they don’t require ugly vent pipes. They’re cheaper as well. The downside is they’re not easy to operate in a power outage.

 

[two_bit_score]

A tanked gas heater will continue working without electricity.

We have one and I love it. It's an AO Smith that I bought at Lowe's and installed with my brother's help.

 

[jyoutz]

I’m not that sold on tankless water heaters. Electric ones are garbage. They strain a regular 200 amp service for the first problem. Putting that aside they struggle to produce hot water. Gas ones do produce plenty of hot water but the upfront cost is high. The heater itself cost nearly 3x what a regular 40 gallon water heater cost. The plumber also charges a good bit extra. If you have a lot of people in the house maybe it would be worth it but a 40 gallon heater should provide plenty of water for at least 4 people. If that’s not working you could piggyback 2 of them and still be cheaper than a tankless. My last complaint with the tankless is they require electricity to work. A tanked gas heater will continue working without electricity. I’m really not sold on the energy saving aspect.

All new tanked water heaters also require electricity to operate, just like gas furnaces. There are no pilot light heaters or furnaces sold today. They are all electric ignition.

 

[BlueKnife]

I’m not that sold on tankless water heaters. Electric ones are garbage. They strain a regular 200 amp service for the first problem. Putting that aside they struggle to produce hot water. Gas ones do produce plenty of hot water but the upfront cost is high. The heater itself cost nearly 3x what a regular 40 gallon water heater cost. The plumber also charges a good bit extra. If you have a lot of people in the house maybe it would be worth it but a 40 gallon heater should provide plenty of water for at least 4 people. If that’s not working you could piggyback 2 of them and still be cheaper than a tankless. My last complaint with the tankless is they require electricity to work. A tanked gas heater will continue working without electricity. I’m really not sold on the energy saving aspect.

FWIW, our tankless propane water heater doesn't require any grid power. It uses C batteries to make the spark. It's not rated for indoor use, but for folks who aren't constrained by the need/desire to do things conventionally, it works great. All the hot water we could ever want for $160. L5 Portable Outdoor Tankless Water Heater

 

[4570Man]

All new tanked water heaters also require electricity to operate, just like gas furnaces. There are no pilot light heaters or furnaces sold today. They are all electric ignition.

I’m not convinced that’s true. I admit it’s been a long time since I’ve dealt with a tanked gas unit. I’ve not used them on any of my construction jobs. The ugly vent stack being the leading reason. But this is the cheapest gas water heater on the lowes website. This sheet doesn’t show any electric supply. I looked through the install manual and I didn’t see any mention of adding a power supply either.

 

[BlueKnife]

I’m not convinced that’s true.

Same. I've installed maybe half a dozen or so tanked gas water heaters. None had electrical connections. There may be some that do, but it's definitely not all of them.

 

[jyoutz]

I’m not convinced that’s true. I admit it’s been a long time since I’ve dealt with a tanked gas unit. I’ve not used them on any of my construction jobs. The ugly vent stack being the leading reason. But this is the cheapest gas water heater on the lowes website. This sheet doesn’t show any electric supply. I looked through the install manual and I didn’t see any mention of adding a power supply either. View attachment 847224

Same. I've installed maybe half a dozen or so tanked gas water heaters. None had electrical connections. There may be some that do, but it's definitely not all of them.

When we did our installation recently, our plumber told us that the new units were all electric start. Maybe there are still a few pilot models, but they aren’t common.

 

[ultrarunner]

I’m not that sold on tankless water heaters. Electric ones are garbage. They strain a regular 200 amp service for the first problem. Putting that aside they struggle to produce hot water. Gas ones do produce plenty of hot water but the upfront cost is high. The heater itself cost nearly 3x what a regular 40 gallon water heater cost. The plumber also charges a good bit extra. If you have a lot of people in the house maybe it would be worth it but a 40 gallon heater should provide plenty of water for at least 4 people. If that’s not working you could piggyback 2 of them and still be cheaper than a tankless. My last complaint with the tankless is they require electricity to work. A tanked gas heater will continue working without electricity. I’m really not sold on the energy saving aspect.

My Bosch Tankless is 3 phase 380v at the cabin… very compact and no water heater tax on the property tax bill… yes a tax is collected on the size of the tank.

It’s not perfect but I have it dialed in and it’s got 33 years of vacation use on it.

Propane or natural gas gas is a problem whereas most everyone in the area has heating oil fired hot water…

Was not going to do all that is required to put in heating oil storage and boiler, etc.

 

[ultrarunner]

When we did our installation recently, our plumber told us that the new units were all electric start. Maybe there are still a few pilot models, but they aren’t common.

All I’m finding is the $88 dollar natural gas 30 gallon water heaters of 30 years ago are now in the $750-$800 range to meet California low nox and sealed combustion and circuit board controlled.

My gas water heater of choice is Bradford White… before is was always Hoyt and loved the ones with lifetime copper tank but Hoyt is no more.

 

[plowhog]

I am going to reconsider the tankless.

I did not mention this as we had the advantage of doing new construction. But I will chime in if this is of any additional help.

We built a residence with garage on one side and two master suites and bedrooms on the other. I wanted one tankless at the bedrooms, one tankless near the garage.

Plumber said: don't do that. Put them both together in the same location. Have them fire "in series" (if needed) to meet demand, and build a recirculation loop under the house. Whaaattt? This seemed to defeat the economy of tankless.

After a spirited discussion, I finally relented and said: "you are the expert, do it your recommended way."

My system works really well and I am happy with it. Only a very short lag to get hot water because it only comes from the recirc loop. Due to our limited demand, most of the time, I don't think I have ever seen both units fire at the same time to keep up with demand. But it could be possible with a houseful of guests. Maybe overkill but our master suites are over 100 ft from the tankless units.

As I said, maybe not applicable to an existing setup but thought I would contribute what I know ....

 

[paulsharvey]

Didn't read through, but saw the insta-hot talk. I'll share my experience and also what I've heard. I've installed two or three thankless, electric systems; one set in a small charter school; what a joke, complete crap. One we installed 20 years ago at an eye surgery place, and it provided boiling water on demand, I'm guessing to sanitize tools, but it wasn't a customer type install. Generally what I'm told; If you have natural gas available, tankless is a no brainer, cheap, saves money, and works very very well. Electric, won't save money, and won't be happy with performance. Propane, if your already hooked up, they work well, but you won't have the cost savings over piped gas.

Many places also have rebates, tax benefits, cheaper service connections, if your changing a conventional to gas tankless

 

[BlueKnife]

When we did our installation recently, our plumber told us that the new units were all electric start. Maybe there are still a few pilot models, but they aren’t common.

FWIW, I just checked through the installation instructions for 8 different randomly selected gas water heaters at Home Depot. Only one required an electrical connection.

 

[Hay Dude]

Here’s my dynamic duo

 

[ultrarunner]

Current home has original gas fired 1993 water heater...

It also has a return loop with a small pump.

What I noticed is I use more gas with the circulating loop on 24/7

It works well to save water because hot water is at the tap immediately.

Without the circulating pump the water takes s long time to get hot.

Maybe missing something but recirculating loop isn't about saving energy...

 

[etpm]

Whichever way you decide to go, take the initial install charges like larger gas line or running wire with a grain of salt. Those "extra" charges may pay themselves off in a very short time. Unless it's special circumstances like digging and running very long lines. IIRC, the wiring needed to install our HP water heater was 10', so not much $$

I would need to run 60 feet of wire. So wire cost could be substantial. I may need a sub panel too but I'm not sure about that.
Eric

 

[2manyrocks]

Current home has original gas fired 1993 water heater...

It also has a return loop with a small pump.

What I noticed is I use more gas with the circulating loop on 24/7

It works well to save water because hot water is at the tap immediately.

Without the circulating pump the water takes s long time to get hot.

Maybe missing something but recirculating loop isn't about saving energy...

Recirculating loop has always been a premium feature to have hot water nearly instantly available anywhere in the house.

 

[newbury]

Current home has original gas fired 1993 water heater...

It also has a return loop with a small pump.

What I noticed is I use more gas with the circulating loop on 24/7

It works well to save water because hot water is at the tap immediately.

Without the circulating pump the water takes s long time to get hot.

Maybe missing something but recirculating loop isn't about saving energy...

Is it extremely well insulated? Or does it just act like a radiator that has been stretched out?

 

[drumminj]

Recirculating loop has always been a premium feature to have hot water nearly instantly available anywhere in the house.

An alternate approach is to install your water heater in a central location with short runs to the critical areas. This avoids the waste heat/energy of circulating your hot water.

We did both in our build -- plumbed (but didn't connect) for a circulating loop to the master that would trigger the pump based on a motion sensor, but also placed the water heater centrally vs out in the garage. Also insulated all hot water lines.

For showers, it's worked out that there's no need to hook up a recirculation pump. It's about 15s until the water is flowing shower-hot. I do wish the vanity sink warmed up faster, but we also ran dedicated 20A circuits there for an insta-hot if needed.

We hedged our bets as best we could (and probably wasted a decent amount of $$$ in the process), but I'd say that central placement of the WH got us 85% of where we wanted to be.

 

[4570Man]

Is it extremely well insulated? Or does it just act like a radiator that has been stretched out?

They’re typically not insulated at all. The point is the convince of having hot water faster. They waste energy by having to heat water that you’re not using. They also have a small electric pump which the energy draw from that would be insignificant.

 

[Hay Dude]

I would like to have one of mine up on second floor in a overflow pan, to shorten the wait for HW, or I go with circ pump.
I’m selling soon, so it’ll be someone elses baby anyway.