Water line question

[plowhog]

Eddie, good info as usual!

You and others advised against blue glue for pressure applications. Christy's rates both blue and clear for pressure in up to 4" PVC pipes. Q- what's wrong with blue?

BTW I use primer/blue glue for all water connections, medium clear for electrical PVC with no primer. Not sure why, but that's what I have always done and I can't ever remember a joint failure?

 

[redipsweb]

Eddie, good info as usual!

You and others advised against blue glue for pressure applications. Christy's rates both blue and clear for pressure in up to 4" PVC pipes. Q- what's wrong with blue?

BTW I use primer/blue glue for all water connections, medium clear for electrical PVC with no primer. Not sure why, but that's what I have always done and I can't ever remember a joint failure?

Medium glue is fine for electrical, it's not under any internal pressure. All your wanting to do for electrical is make a water tight seal from ground water. The heavy duty glue us plumbers use is in a green can & is also clear. Plus, the heavy duty sets up quicker than blue. I never use blue glue if there are no wet pipes involved, that's the only real reason to it. Inspectors require primmer over cleaner because they can see you actually used a cleaner/primmer product when doing the install.

 

[KJSBX]

I ran 400' of 1" PE-3408 black ploy to my barn 18 years ago-no problems yet.
I sleeved it in 6" sch80 PVC where it crossed under my driveway.
I direct buried it below the frost line (42").

 

[Elviscaretaker]

Some good advice on this topic.
My 2 cents worth is (for the areas I've worked and lived in) I'd go with a sleeved Uponor Wursbo pipe. For reasons stated above that some ground tunnelers like to bite them. This type of pex can freeze to about 4-6x it's normal size and survive, you can heat up a bend in the pipe to get a kink out, the compression fittings (need the tool to expand the pipe, but you can rent them in some areas) and I've been able to get 500' rolls of it from Fergusons. The bad of it is the UV, do not leave it exposed to the sun anywhere in the system. The pex you get at the boxes is pretty much crap (IMO). I got tired of fixing leaks for friends and family with pvc/cpvc and firmly believe that it shouldn't be used in any home or sprinkler system due to past experience (I call it a 10 year pipe). I've never had any issues with 200 psi poly. The big thing is to bury whatever you choose deep enough for your frost line AND bed the thing in sand. MINIMUM 6" all around it. I understand costs and availability can be a issue but it's always better to not have to go back and fix it. Sleeving the pipe also gives you the option of running the final later. One last thing, check your code before burying electrical with the water, in a lot of cases there needs to be 1' elevation difference between the pipes and some don't allow them to be in the same trench. It also never hurts to lay some buried caution tape a few inches under the soil along the trench line. IMHO.
If you have water to the site now, do a pressure test on it, it'll give you a better idea of what size to go with. You can do a cheat if you want and run a extra long hose and test at the end of it. Not the best but it'll give you a better idea of what the pressure will be at the end of the line.

 

[DGeorge747]

I have to run a water line to a home I'm building and would like to get some of your opinions on what you guys would do. Now remember its hard to find most materials. I'm needing to get the water line in so they can pour the concrete pad for shop. The shop pad is about 350 feet from the meter and I'm running 1" line. My two options are 1" pex and schedule 40. This is somewhat rocky ground with a lot of clay, sand and small stone in the mix. I'm reading that it wouldn't be a bad idea if I go with Pex to sleeve it which is going to raise the cost.

Pex line 1" x 400' is going run around 400.00 and I will roughly have two fitting in the total run. If I sleeve the pex with 4'x100' black corrugated sewer and drain pipe its going add another 240.00 for a total of 640.00. The pex isn't a full one inch inside diameter and more like .830. I can get a 300' roll and 100' roll so really one connection to get to shop.

Schedule 40 will be in 20' sticks at around 300.00 and I wouldn't think I would need to sleeve this. With the schedule 40 I will have about 20 glue joints and of course would use the blue glue in a quart. The PVC is a full one inch ID which means more water up to home and shop.

I am somewhat familiar with both setups. Meaning I have experience gluing PVC and I also have a pex tool and have ran pex before. My pocket book is telling me to go with PVC. Probably no clear cut answers but what would you guys do in this situation?

In the water supply lines I have installed, and have seen installed, only use a continuous piece (if possible) of black poly water line or better yet. PEX.

I would highly recommend to stay away from PVC as a pressurized water supply line for many reasons. Too many joints to possibly fail, especially due to shifting and settling of the soil, and the possible damage from backfilling. Also, the hardness and brittleness of PVC in the ground is risky.

There is no need for sleeving or putting your water line in "conduit", in fact it could make things worse.

If you have concerns about rocky soil damaging your water line, you should put about 6 to 8 inches of sand in the trench before you put the water linein the trench, preferably PEX, then backfill over the water line with another 6 to 8 inches of sand. Finish backfilling over the sand with your existing soil and your water line is now protected.

I don't know your climate, but another advantage to PEX is that it can even freeze and swell up or expand without bursting or cracking, and when it thaws out it will return to it's original shape.

Good luck! NO PVC. NO underground joints.

 

[lman]

I also ran 1" black poly about 300 ft. to my horse barn about 22 years ago. Trenched to 42" direct burial. Soil was already sandy, so no rocks. Haven't had any problems with it.

 

[redipsweb]

rickyb01, you need to know the different types of pex, most of the crap bought at box stores is type B & does not expand, pex A does expand. PEX-A is the most flexible, allowing for it to be fastened by cold expansion, which allows the end to be fluted prior to inserting the fitting. PEX B is not expandable and you should never expand the end of a PEX-B pipe. So everyone saying go w/ pex because it expands, be diligent on the pex you purchase. Pex-a can be installed w/ expanded or crimp fittings, Pex-b is crimp fittings only. If you go w/ pex, buy Wirsbo/Uponor brand pipe, you can get this at a plumbing supply house. If black poly was great that everyone keeps mentioning, it would be still available. Many places quit selling this crap because of the failures. Yes, there is the lucky few that have it w/ no problems, but as I said "lucky few". With the ground conditions you have, that would be my absolute last choice.

 

[DieselBound]

I'm curious as to why people believe PEX is better than poly in this application. I'm a fan of PEX-A (Upunor), so it's not that I don't like PEX.

I'm contemplating a new house build and have thoughts about what I'd use for a short supply line run (max 30'): PEX or poly. My pretzel-logic PVC piping in my pump house has always had me contemplating swapping to PEX, but have had concerns over UV stability (no windows and the door tends to stay closed unless I'm doing maintenance work)- I also have had concerns about my use of H2O2 (treatment), whether PEX-A can take it (tried reaching out to the manudacture several years ago and got no reply): might be an over-blown concern.

 

[redipsweb]

I'm curious as to why people believe PEX is better than poly in this application. I'm a fan of PEX-A (Upunor), so it's not that I don't like PEX.

I'm contemplating a new house build and have thoughts about what I'd use for a short supply line run (max 30'): PEX or poly. My pretzel-logic PVC piping in my pump house has always had me contemplating swapping to PEX, but have had concerns over UV stability (no windows and the door tends to stay closed unless I'm doing maintenance work)- I also have had concerns about my use of H2O2 (treatment), whether PEX-A can take it (tried reaching out to the manudacture several years ago and got no reply): might be an over-blown concern.

I used Pex-a for a commercial job, that they used it to clean screens the manufacture told me I could use it, but I had to use S/S fittings because of the chemicals.

 

[Menagerie-Manor]

I'm curious as to why people believe PEX is better than poly in this application. I'm a fan of PEX-A (Upunor), so it's not that I don't like PEX.

I'm contemplating a new house build and have thoughts about what I'd use for a short supply line run (max 30'): PEX or poly. My pretzel-logic PVC piping in my pump house has always had me contemplating swapping to PEX, but have had concerns over UV stability (no windows and the door tends to stay closed unless I'm doing maintenance work)- I also have had concerns about my use of H2O2 (treatment), whether PEX-A can take it (tried reaching out to the manudacture several years ago and got no reply): might be an over-blown concern.

Pex or poly for direct burial is great either way, at this point there is probably more poly service connections underground then everything else combined in this country. I gutted the kitchen in my cottage 2 years ago (was seasonal use originally) and ripped every inch of PVC water out. There were more repairs sections then I had fingers or toes to count and if you took a piece and bent it by hand it would literally explode. I re-piped the house with 3/4 pex.

 

[jthibodeau89]

The 2500'+ waterline to our house is 2" o-ring slip fit. House is 200' higher than meter, so there is a booster pump 50' above the meter. Installed in mid 80's. Only issue was when the trackhoe operator forgot i told him there was a water line in the area while he was grading out downstrean from a culvert repair. Snagged it and pulled out the the nearest joint. Spliced in a 20' stick of schedule 40 with shutoff valve. Reused the bevelled end.

Based on your length from the meter. If you go eith a 1" line, you may need a 50 gal well tank at the house to maintain pressure during showers, etc.

 

[4570Man]

You have a lot of very strong opinions. It would be nice to find out where they come from. IF I am missing something I am always interested in learning, please let me know where to look for this. CPVC is chemically stronger than PVC to my knowledge and PE pipe works great in that application also.

There’s no if ands or buts about it pvc is stronger than black poly. Go saw each pipe in half with a bread knife and see which takes longer if you don’t believe me. And the PVC has a working pressure of over double the pex or poly. Not that that matters but it supports my claim that’s it’s stronger. I’ve fixed dozens of poly lines thar have been abraded through. I’ve never fixed a pvc line thar wore through. CPVC is a much weaker pipe than pvc. 20 year old cpvc is almost untouchable because it just breaks when you move it. I’ve never had that problem with PVC. Like I said earlier cpvc is intended for hot water. There’s no claims anywhere of it being better for burying. Even putting that aside I don’t think you can buy it in the diameter needed or with belled ends. A belled end is far stronger then a coupler.

 

[redipsweb]

Pex or poly for direct burial is great either way, at this point there is probably more poly service connections underground then everything else combined in this country. I gutted the kitchen in my cottage 2 years ago (was seasonal use originally) and ripped every inch of PVC water out. There were more repairs sections then I had fingers or toes to count and if you took a piece and bent it by hand it would literally explode. I re-piped the house with 3/4 pex.

I'm curious to know if most the repairs were on the hot side, if so, that pipe should have been CPVC. I come to experience over the years that CPVC joints tend fail over time. If it didn't have CPVC, well than that's the other reason it had so many repairs, PVC is not rated for hot water. But, Pex would have been my choice for replacement over copper on a seasonal cottage. Plus, if it's a seasonal cottage it probably should be winterized, which could be another reason for all the PVC repairs.

 

[Menagerie-Manor]

I'm curious to know if most the repairs were on the hot side, if so, that pipe should have been CPVC. I come to experience over the years that CPVC joints tend fail over time. If it didn't have CPVC, well than that's the other reason it had so many repairs, PVC is not rated for hot water. But, Pex would have been my choice for replacement over copper on a seasonal cottage. Plus, if it's a seasonal cottage it probably should be winterized, which could be another reason for all the PVC repairs.

Repairs were all freeze related even though they did install low point drains, most don't realize that standing water breaks pipes too. No longer seasonal.

 

[redipsweb]

There’s no if ands or buts about it pvc is stronger than black poly. Go saw each pipe in half with a bread knife and see which takes longer if you don’t believe me. And the PVC has a working pressure of over double the pex or poly. Not that that matters but it supports my claim that’s it’s stronger. I’ve fixed dozens of poly lines thar have been abraded through. I’ve never fixed a pvc line thar wore through. CPVC is a much weaker pipe than pvc. 20 year old cpvc is almost untouchable because it just breaks when you move it. I’ve never had that problem with PVC. Like I said earlier cpvc is intended for hot water. There’s no claims anywhere of it being better for burying. Even putting that aside I don’t think you can buy it in the diameter needed or with belled ends. A belled end is far stronger then a coupler.

You're absolutely correct about CPVC, when repairing this crap you have to be so cautious w/ it. Any repairs I've ever done to it, I've put copper or pex in it's place. This crap is so horrible & I can't believe people swear by this sh** sometimes

 

[duffer]

I suspect you're probably totally confused by all the opinions that oppose each other here. I'm more concerned about the size of the pipe you'll use, more so than the type of pipe you'll use.

At 400' of linear pipe (of any kind) you'll get a LOT of friction inside the pipe. Worst thing I ever did was run a small pex line out to my 2nd garage (80' from the house, and about 110' from the pressure tank). Water pressure and volume sucks.

Use a MINIMUM of 1½" ID pipe (my preference is Sch 40). Personally, I'd go 2" ID if it were my house, especially over 400'. You'll reduce the friction immensely and maintain your volume & pressure as well.

Good luck!

 

[redipsweb]

Repairs were all freeze related even though they did install low point drains, most don't realize that standing water breaks pipes too. No longer seasonal.

Gotcha, low point drains work, but to truly winterize 1 you should blow air through lines & push out as much water as possible. But hey, now that's not the issue any more.

 

[redipsweb]

I suspect you're probably totally confused by all the opinions that oppose each other here. I'm more concerned about the size of the pipe you'll use, more so than the type of pipe you'll use.

At 400' of linear pipe (of any kind) you'll get a LOT of friction inside the pipe. Worst thing I ever did was run a small pex line out to my 2nd garage (80' from the house, and about 110' from the pressure tank). Water pressure and volume sucks.

Use a MINIMUM of 1½" ID pipe (my preference is Sch 40). Personally, I'd go 2" ID if it were my house, especially over 400'. You'll reduce the friction immensely and maintain your volume & pressure as well.

Good luck!

In a previous post, I said

"Depending on the lay of your property from the meter to the house/shop is what would determine the size line to use. Remember your meter is only a 3/4" or 1" unless you pd for a commercial size meter, so your only get so much volume/pressure. If you go to big you'll ruin your volume/pressure. Unlike a lot people think, you can not create pressure by down sizing your line, the water company is only giving you so much. I ran 1500' of 3/4" pex on a job & the guy digging for me said I should have used 1", he wasn't taking into consideration we we're going downhill the whole time. When we're done, we had to use a pressure reducer at the house because of to much pressure. You pick up what's called head pressure when going downhill. If you could draw a imaginary straight line from meter to house & your w/in ten or so feet of where that line hits vs where the house sits, stay w/ whatever size your meter is & you'll be fine. Because when your going up hill you lose pressure, but you gain it back when going downhill w/ head pressure, so it basically evens out when it get's to the end of the run. The 1500' job had a few areas that were extremely rocky, I sleeved the areas w/ the 1-1/2 pvc, that line has been in for 6+yrs now & not heard back from the customer."

You can over size a water line.

 

[Menagerie-Manor]

I suspect you're probably totally confused by all the opinions that oppose each other here. I'm more concerned about the size of the pipe you'll use, more so than the type of pipe you'll use.

At 400' of linear pipe (of any kind) you'll get a LOT of friction inside the pipe. Worst thing I ever did was run a small pex line out to my 2nd garage (80' from the house, and about 110' from the pressure tank). Water pressure and volume sucks.

Use a MINIMUM of 1½" ID pipe (my preference is Sch 40). Personally, I'd go 2" ID if it were my house, especially over 400'. You'll reduce the friction immensely and maintain your volume & pressure as well.

Good luck!

Good point, I just ripped out all the original pump (jet)and piping for a re-do on my system. Installed a submersible running at 60-80 psi but the supply from the pump house is almost 400' so phase 2 will be a 1-1/2" to replace the 1" poly.

 

[ning]

I'd caution you against considering price differences of $100 or even $200 on a job like this. $200 is nothing compared to the time to repair a leak for whatever reason. Realize also that your limited use of water there today isn't a good indication of water needs in 10 years (been there, done that!) when you decide to put in a garden behind the shop or who knows what.

Personally, bigger is better when it comes to water pipes and conduit. You'll never regret having put in a larger pipe.

Ignore the cost of the material and realize that the differences in installation time aren't huge, compared to the time cost of tracing leaks + digging + repairing a leak, or re-trenching the whole thing later for a proper sized pipe.