Water storage solutions in a drought

[beowulf]

In his area, I'm pretty sure that a small pond would turn into a mud hole by mid-to-late summer.

Oh yeah. Usually in August mud, later just dry.

 

[beowulf]

We had two 1750 gal storage tanks set up on our well system (when I was still using the well). Our first well went dry, drilled a second well 200' deeper. It produced 15 gal / min at first, but over 3 years, also went almost dry (maybe 10 gal per HOUR)

At that time, set up a timer in conjunction with the pump protector. When the pump protector tripped to "off", the timer would trip on, keeping the pump protector from starting the pump for 2 hours until the well would replenish. This is when we installed the tanks.

The well would feed into one tank with a float valve to turn it off when full. The second tank was just gravity fed from the first (effectively filling both tanks simultaneously). The same pipe that gravity fed the tank was where a booster pump was installed (off a "T" fitting) so it pulled from both tanks. The original 60 gal pressure tank was right after the pump, then going to the house.

It worked very well like this for years, supplying a 5 BR, 3 bath house, 6 people. ......Until that well went dry. It cost me over $35K to get the municipal water line run a mile to our house.

In your situation, I would probably just install a couple of tanks, plumb them into the system with shut off valves. You would need to put a shut off on the well pump supply line (or at least a one way check valve) to prevent the tanks from draining back down the well. Also a valve prior to the pressure tank to isolate the pressure tank to the house (This will allow shunting the well to fill the tanks without backflowing from the house). I would also put a booster pump on the tank line before the shutoff. (You can still fill the tanks just flowing backwards through the pump).

This will allow a few things...
1) if the well pump ever went out, you could still operate the household at full pressure running off the tanks.
2) you can fill the tanks from the well by turning a few valves.
3) you can run a booster pump off of a small generator, in case of power failure.
4) you can set up a hose tap after the booster to be able to connect a hose for fire suppression.... won't put out a wildfire, but could wet stuff down if needed.

I hope this helps. Don't hesitate to ask any other questions.

LS, I know it is difficult to apply a solution that worked for one circumstance to other situations - different elevations, and such - but perhaps something might be feasible.

Some more background before my questions;

The well head is at the same elevation as the house and about 40 feet away. Just behind the well the elevation increases and there are several terraced flat areas - each about 5 feet higher as they go up. I estimate that the highest elevation is about 40' higher than the well and about 80 feet farther back. So, I could use your two tank suggestion, or maybe one tank, if I ran water from the well to the tanks high up but that may not be the best course - or easiest course.

Because, as you say, I could run a small booster pump off of a generator, what about:

-putting a tank (or two tanks) next to the well head
-having water pumped into the top of the tank (and possibly into two tanks)
-having a shut off float switch in the tank to shut it off when it is full
-having a second float switch in the tank set lower down to turn it back on to fill it
-installing a booster pump for the tank (or tanks) to fill the pressure tank and pressurize the system. (I am assuming a booster pump could achieve the 40-60 range needed)
-
-I would not have any gravity fed advantage by putting the tank near the well and at the same elevation as the house, but as you state, I could use a generator to power the booster pump as necessary if power went out. And to get the gravity fed advantage would make the project many times more difficult.

Questions: 1)I understand the need for a check valve between the booster and pressure tank but, as you advise, would I need a check valve to prevent water from flowing back to the well if it entered the tank at the top and that entry point would never come in contact with the water as the float switch would be set to prevent that? I guess I am not clear on where each check valve would be needed.

2) Not sure I understand comment: "I would also put a booster pump on the tank line before the shutoff. (You can still fill the tanks just flowing backwards through the pump)"

3) re your comment that 'you could fill the tanks from the well by turning a few valves' - wouldn't the tank or tank be filled automatically by having the well pump controlled by a shut off and on float switches set at different levels? (or would that work only if had one tank?)

Again, thanks for your detailed post - thinking this through is interesting. Appreciate the help. Old men need hobbies.

 

[ponytug]

FWIW: You probably know this from your rain barrels, but rainwater tends to have lots of sediment and debris in it. Ideally, there is a first flush diverted to let the first hit of debris filled rain bypass the collection system completely and then the remainder goes to a large tank, where it can slowly settle. After it has settled, you could pump it uphill. Just be aware that running dirty water through the pump is going to make the particles smaller and take them longer to settle.

I saw a design that had a spiral of perforated drain pipe at the bottom of a rainwater tank attached to the drain valve as a way to get sediment out of the tank easily. Some friends have an ozonator running continuously, or 8hrs out of 24, to keep the water from smelling.

A rainwater system has been on my do list for awhile, but for us the tank site is a major operation needing new concrete retaining walls, etc., so it has not moved to the "do now" list quite yet. Personally, I would love to have it to be able to wash things without having hard water spots.

Good luck!

All the best,

Peter

 

[plowhog]

I understand the need for a check valve between the booster and pressure tank but, as you advise, would I need a check valve to prevent water from flowing back to the well if it entered the tank at the top and that entry point would never come in contact with the water as the float switch would be set to prevent that?

I have looked into similar issues for my property. A very big choice for you is whether to save and store water exclusively for outside irrigation, or to have water for combined use that includes drinking, bathing, etc. Outside-only water, not connected at all to the drinking water system, is much easier for the obvious reasons.

If you intend to use it for drinking water, you must ensure it is safe and clean at all times during storage. I'm not sure how to do that. Maybe others are.

Where the delivery splits/combines between household water and outside irrigation, you will need a reduced pressure backflow preventer (RPBP) or similar device. A single check valve to protect your drinking water simply is not sufficient. Some will advocate plumbing two check valves in a row as double protection, but even that opens the chance of contamination. A RPBP is best although you will lose some psi due to the workings of the device. Or a vacuum breaker on the irrigation side of things is another choice.

 

[LS Tractor Owner]

LS, I know it is difficult to apply a solution that worked for one circumstance to other situations - different elevations, and such - but perhaps something might be feasible.

Some more background before my questions;

The well head is at the same elevation as the house and about 40 feet away. Just behind the well the elevation increases and there are several terraced flat areas - each about 5 feet higher as they go up. I estimate that the highest elevation is about 40' higher than the well and about 80 feet farther back. So, I could use your two tank suggestion, or maybe one tank, if I ran water from the well to the tanks high up but that may not be the best course - or easiest course.

Because, as you say, I could run a small booster pump off of a generator, what about:

-putting a tank (or two tanks) next to the well head
-having water pumped into the top of the tank (and possibly into two tanks)
-having a shut off float switch in the tank to shut it off when it is full
-having a second float switch in the tank set lower down to turn it back on to fill it
-installing a booster pump for the tank (or tanks) to fill the pressure tank and pressurize the system. (I am assuming a booster pump could achieve the 40-60 range needed)
-
-I would not have any gravity fed advantage by putting the tank near the well and at the same elevation as the house, but as you state, I could use a generator to power the booster pump as necessary if power went out. And to get the gravity fed advantage would make the project many times more difficult.

Questions: 1)I understand the need for a check valve between the booster and pressure tank but, as you advise, would I need a check valve to prevent water from flowing back to the well if it entered the tank at the top and that entry point would never come in contact with the water as the float switch would be set to prevent that? I guess I am not clear on where each check valve would be needed.

2) Not sure I understand comment: "I would also put a booster pump on the tank line before the shutoff. (You can still fill the tanks just flowing backwards through the pump)"

3) re your comment that 'you could fill the tanks from the well by turning a few valves' - wouldn't the tank or tank be filled automatically by having the well pump controlled by a shut off and on float switches set at different levels? (or would that work only if had one tank?)

Again, thanks for your detailed post - thinking this through is interesting. Appreciate the help. Old men need hobbies.

Just saw your post.... I will sketch out a simple diagram and post on here in a bit....

#2 was if you wanted to run normally off the well, using the tanks solely as backup. Essentially isolating the tanks and booster pump.

#3 was including #2, being able to run off the tanks OR the well.

#1 would be my preferred choice, but, a little more complicated, but you would always be cycling fresh water through the tanks. The tanks would also serve as "drop points" for any minerals or sediment.

There is no need for two float switches. There are 2 types:
#1 -- type that "turns on" the equipment when raised, "off" when lowered.

#2 -- type that "turns off" the equipment when raised, "on" when lowered.

You would want the one that "turns off" when raised (tank is full), turning off the well pump.
You could add an additional one of the first type, much lower in the tank, to turn off the equipment in case of low water level in the tank (to prevent damage from running dry) but is not necessary. Having both types of float valves just makes the wiring a bit more complicated.

Stand-by for that diagram....

 

[LS Tractor Owner]

Here is the diagram.... I have done better work...

 

[Billy Bee]

What if the government spent some of those billions in infrastructure money on research for an efficient and economical desalinization process? California has over 1100 miles of coastline on the largest ocean in the world. It could be powered by wind, solar, or wave action. Just a suggestion Mr. government, forget mars, explore the pacific. Don't curse the darkness, light a candle.
Bill

 

[beowulf]

Here is the diagram.... I have done better work...

Thanks again - really helps to think through my options. BTW - yesterday I contacted a tank supplier - they are apparently having a run on tanks - prices increasing and at least an eight week wait for any delivery.

 

[plowhog]

Thanks again - really helps to think through my options. BTW - yesterday I contacted a tank supplier - they are apparently having a run on tanks - prices increasing and at least an eight week wait for any delivery.

Same here. I am upgrading my well at my Nevada residence and the supplier said his prices have increased. If I don't commit to work by May 15 he is passing those new charges onto me.

 

[LS Tractor Owner]

Thanks again - really helps to think through my options. BTW - yesterday I contacted a tank supplier - they are apparently having a run on tanks - prices increasing and at least an eight week wait for any delivery.

I was surprised a couple months ago when I decided to sell my tanks.....

First a neighbor wanted them, and I was going to swap him for his time doing some welding for me.... after 6 months of waiting, he told me "never mind, go ahead and sell them".....

So I loaded them on a trailer and took them down the road to the little town. There is a lot there where people sell trucks, cars, anything....

By the time I got back home (15 minutes), had my first call inquiring about them. About 10 minutes later, the second call offered full asking price and an additional $100 if I would deliver them about 2 miles from where they were sitting. An hour later, the deal was done!

I got the same price for what I paid for them 12 years earlier.....