Sberry
Platinum Member
Where does it say hard wire? I have a book in my office but not here? You may be right and I may be wrong but where they write it?
Welder/Plasma supply wireing, need homework graded
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the old grind
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That was my statement. IIRC 8 ga or so was called out for the circuit. It was for the sort run that I didn't need/use 6 ga, that's all.
I'm with Lou that heavier ga wire, once paid for, is best for minimizing voltage drop as well as maintaining ampacity to the furthest outlet from a panel.
(nothing wrong with using 110v 15a breaker on 12 ga 12/3 for long runs, etc.)
A circuit can be wired heavier ga than the typical load and fused lower to protect the lighter use. eg: 50a circuit serves/protects 30a max load.
Sberry
Platinum Member
Somewhat correct. You can protect a wire with a lighter breaker but the breaker needs to be limited to the recepts. 20A recepts limited to 20A breaker with the exception for 15 on it
All others need to be current limited to match. If they didn't we would simply run 6 and hook 20 to them all but we don't because the drill is not designed to be hooked to larger circuits.
It uses the breaker for it's fault protection.
Next, those that study this and have some actual education are aware we use 120/240.
All others need to be current limited to match. If they didn't we would simply run 6 and hook 20 to them all but we don't because the drill is not designed to be hooked to larger circuits.
It uses the breaker for it's fault protection.
Next, those that study this and have some actual education are aware we use 120/240.
Sberry
Platinum Member
I re read, yes you can fuse a heavier wire lighter but it's not a 50 circuit then, it's a 30.
In dedicated circuits the breaker does not or is not intended to protect the wire for thermal. It's there to allow the rated current to pass but it's other main function is for limiting short circuit, it's there to prevent the equipment from being plugged in to a circuit too large.
This is a fundamental principle. The licence for this work is intended to qualify and insure the installer knows this basic principle
When I hear some of the comments in this thread such as the only thing a breaker does is protect the wire in the wall I know we are dealing with hearsay learning and havnt had any actual education with it.
If the concept was that simple why so much education required to get the license?
In dedicated circuits the breaker does not or is not intended to protect the wire for thermal. It's there to allow the rated current to pass but it's other main function is for limiting short circuit, it's there to prevent the equipment from being plugged in to a circuit too large.
This is a fundamental principle. The licence for this work is intended to qualify and insure the installer knows this basic principle
When I hear some of the comments in this thread such as the only thing a breaker does is protect the wire in the wall I know we are dealing with hearsay learning and havnt had any actual education with it.
If the concept was that simple why so much education required to get the license?
workinonit
Elite Member
This is a ridiculous argument. First off, at least in the rings I run in, no electrician worth his salt would ever wire any circuit that isn't to NEC standards. Why on earth would someone push a clause in the code to the point of using 14 AWG on a 30 amp circuit or 12 AWG on a 50 amp circuit? That's ludicrous and irresponsible. And I think it's unsafe. Besides that I don't know of an inspector anywhere that would pass such a circuit, even if you tattooed article 630 on their forehead and I deal with them everyday. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD do something. For anyone reading this nonsense please do not install any circuits based on this wiring method. The price difference between 12 AWG and 6 AWG is not worth burning your shop or home down.
BTW, the reason that article 630 is ONLY for hardwired welders is that if you use this method with plugs and receptacles then it is too easy to plug some other device into this "shady" circuit, such as a dryer or rod oven. Do that and see what would happen. SMDH.
BTW, the reason that article 630 is ONLY for hardwired welders is that if you use this method with plugs and receptacles then it is too easy to plug some other device into this "shady" circuit, such as a dryer or rod oven. Do that and see what would happen. SMDH.
Sberry
Platinum Member
First off. I didn't say you should do this, second it's a legal circuit and 3rd the circles you run in call it 110 and 220 which it ain't and havnt been for decades. They also wire old range recepts on welder circuits. I don't think it's a silly argument to teach a little rudimentary electric theory. It's obvious now you are distracted with the wire size and miss any other point.
Sberry
Platinum Member
I been on forums a while and can spot it when someone doesn't know they don't know that they don't know. Usually there is that famous instructor "someone told me" involved or "someone always told me" or "I was always taught" is the other guy.
Here is a general question. What is the white wire in a 120v circuit called?
Here is a general question. What is the white wire in a 120v circuit called?
Sberry
Platinum Member
The shady part of this is someone wiring up an oven to a welder circuit. Has probably cut the factory cord off. Uses the wrong plug to the wrong recepts
Then suggests do that and see what happens
Then suggests do that and see what happens
Sberry
Platinum Member
This comes from a guy probably smarter than I am. Smart enough he doesn't need a book or a class or any real study to jump to these conclusions.without knowing any thing about it. Truly dumb people usually know they don't know.
It's often harder to teach smart people. This wasn't particularly about the wire size but how they come to design the specs and the witr size the way thru did
Once this part is somewhat understood them the rest makes some sense.
Most math is that way for me, I don't know the basics well enough that the advanced is all gibberish but I don't delude myself thinking I know. If it was left up to me when race would still be eating dirt and riding on horseback. So, I read and follow the instructions first and see if it makes any sense later.
I have dealt with guys that think cause they don't understand they are then sposed to do things the way they see it. Our phone co had some installers follow this practice. I ask one why he didn't ground it. He days cause he don't understand.. I say then maybe you should follow the instructions. I guess that logic is tuff to follow along with.
I happened to be drinking buds wit a couple fire investigators back in the day. I even got to sit in on some convention.sessions. I asked,,,, How many have seen fires from wiring from welding machines or air comps. 75 guys in the room, not one. Use of yes, number 1 is use of 30 fuses on 15A.wire and involves small heaters. Second is probably faulty neutral along with incomplete fault protection allowing arc faults. 2nd or 3rd is a tie with people splicing in to jboxes.
It's often harder to teach smart people. This wasn't particularly about the wire size but how they come to design the specs and the witr size the way thru did
Once this part is somewhat understood them the rest makes some sense.
Most math is that way for me, I don't know the basics well enough that the advanced is all gibberish but I don't delude myself thinking I know. If it was left up to me when race would still be eating dirt and riding on horseback. So, I read and follow the instructions first and see if it makes any sense later.
I have dealt with guys that think cause they don't understand they are then sposed to do things the way they see it. Our phone co had some installers follow this practice. I ask one why he didn't ground it. He days cause he don't understand.. I say then maybe you should follow the instructions. I guess that logic is tuff to follow along with.
I happened to be drinking buds wit a couple fire investigators back in the day. I even got to sit in on some convention.sessions. I asked,,,, How many have seen fires from wiring from welding machines or air comps. 75 guys in the room, not one. Use of yes, number 1 is use of 30 fuses on 15A.wire and involves small heaters. Second is probably faulty neutral along with incomplete fault protection allowing arc faults. 2nd or 3rd is a tie with people splicing in to jboxes.
Sberry
Platinum Member
But it's obvious when someone has never read the book and starts telling what the NEC says.