Welding 1/4" steel- Mig or stick?

[Sully2]

....
I guess one other thought I would add would be that many people will tell you the machine's "max" capacity, but that is really in a perfect setting, and all too often, we are not operating there. Sure, you can bevel, preheat, grind out, backgas purge, etc. etc. and that is all done in industry but very seldom done by the average backyard joe trying to get his middle buster stuck back together in the back yard.

Hence the reason I bought my HH210 machine. I CAN do 1/4" stuff with the HH140...but by the time I get done grinding a good bevel..etc..etc...Im already finished with the larger machine

 

[RobJ]

Not sure if the smiley face mean's you are just being funny and it is a rhetorical question,

hehe maybe a little of both.

BTW I have 2 stick and 2 migs. Newest mig is a HH140 with C25. I bought it for welding light tubing and it works fantastic! Virtually no clean up with the gas and I haven't burned a hole in 16 gauge tubing yet (running 3-30, right off the side door with .035). I wanted the 110 for travel. Saturday I took it over to a buddys house who is restoring a 'Cuda. Needed to tack on the square exit pipes, then remove pipe and weld solid. Worked perfect. Anything bigger I grab a stick. The other mig has FC wire(HF 220v model). Man once you go gas...you'll never go back!

 

[RobJ]

I dunno if there are 3/4" rods. There may be, but I've never seen such an animal nor heard of one.

I'll search more to see if I can find that thread. It's interesting reading.

 

[AlanB]

Yeah, the welder at my house that gets turned on the most is the little 130 Miller. More jobs fit the profile of what that does in my shop now then anything else.

 

[xlr82v2]

And IMHO anyone on TBN that thinks that I'M the "smartest" in my opinion is dumber in the head than a hog is in the A**. Ive never stated I am / was..and if YOU think that...you fit the preceding catagory.

Relax, I certainly don't think that you're the smartest... And I KNOW that I'm not either... if I was, I wouldn't be in this mud hole of a thread. But here I am, even after I said I wouldn't...

My advice being worth what someone paid for it...??..maybe it helped someone...but where was YOUR ADVICE in this thread...( duhhh...NONE)..all you have accomplished is to run yoru MOUTH and make an attempt to run me personally down. Thats been real helpful..hasnt it?

If you remember back, my advice to you was to stop spreading bad advice to other newbie welders like yourself based on your bad experience/lack of knowledge in welding. But it appears that you missed that, and instead took it as a personal attack. Sorry for that, nothing "personal" was meant or intended.

I can easily see that you're very enthusiastic about welding, and that is to be commended, and I applaud you for that. I share the same feeling as you on this subject. But when you start making statements that imply that AC SMAW is basically unuseable, un-doable, vastly more difficult, harder to learn, MIG is MUCH better, MIG is Superior etc., it is just showing your ignorance (ignorance/ant is not a bad, derogative word) about the welding process. And then steering others away from an AC machine that will meet 99.8% or more of their needs towards an AC/DC machine that is much more money based solely on your ignorance of the SMAW process and the results of such, is really doing a dis-service to all of those potential new welders reading your posts. It's bad information, based on inexperience and ignorance. And I feel that if I didn't speak up and say something, then by my inaction, would be doing as much disservice to them as you are. But, I've seen it all too many times here on TBN where the "naysayer," who is really the most experienced, or most knowledgeable, or making the most correct assessment of an issue, gets railroaded by the big momentum built up in a thread by the one who is dispensing all the so-called "facts" as he sees them along with all of the other less knowledgeable "followers". And, I can see that is starting to happen here in this thread with my advice to you...

As far as adding any other advice, it would be this: DO NOT look to the threads here on TBN for welding advice... this website is too full of bad and mis-information to be of any redeeming value on this subject, and it would just take too much time and effort to hash out the good from the bad. There IS some good advice on here, but there's WAY TOO MUCH bad mixed in with it. Instead, I would advise a new welder to sign up on Hobart Weld Talk, and other welding only sites, and state that you're a beginner and wanting to learn, ask intelligent questions, and then sit back and listen (or read). And most of all, get someone who truly knows how to weld, to teach you how to do it, so that you don't unknowingly teach yourself a bunch of bad habits.

But you did say one thing truthful at least...IT ISNT YOUR MONEY and I seriously doubt if you even own a wire fed machine????

I think you might be seriously wrong... I own a Lincoln SP175+ along with a Hobart Stickmate... the Stickmate is hidden behind the box...



Here's a pic I found of the Stickmate, along with my Oxy-Propane rig...




AC vs. DC SMAW... DC does give a smoother arc than AC. Arc starts? Not a lot of difference between the two that I can tell. If you're sticking rods, usually you've got the amps set a bit too low, or you've got a bad ground connection, or both. DC is a little easier to manipulate the puddle in out-of-position welding. This absolutely is not to say that AC cannot do out of position welding... AC most certainly can. AC can weld most anything that DC can... DC is just "nicer"... more of a "luxury" for the vast majority of us "hobby" welders. I learned to weld on an old Lincoln AC buzz box starting back when I was probably 7-8 years old by my Dad, who is a professional welder, with a degree in industrial welding. So, I "learned past" any severe bias against AC that I might have otherwise developed... AC was all I ever knew until I got my AC/DC Stickmate. DC certainly is nice... DC certainly IS NOT necessary(in our "hobby" type usage).

One problem with DC that cropps up occasionally is a phenomenon called "Arc Blow", which I asked you about earlier, and you have as of yet, declined to answer. This is where the magnetic field that develops in the joint you're welding will actually push the arc away from the joint... when it happens, it will make you want to pull your hair out. Sometimes you can change the location of your ground lead, and it will go away. Sometimes you can make a few tack welds in different places to change the path of current flow in your workpiece, and it will go away. Usually you just have to switch to AC to get rid of it. Arc Blow doesn't happen with AC. +1 for AC.

Electrodes... You said you were having difficulty welding with 60XX rods on AC... 6010 is a DC only rod, if you're running AC, you need to use 6011, which is AC or DCRP. The 6010 and 6011 rods are inherently more difficult to run (meaning that they dig aggressively and don't leave a very pretty bead behind) than the rest of the different electrodes. 6013 seems to like to run toward the hotter end of the range, at least on my machine, if you try to run it too cold, you won't get good results.

Straight 7018 is a DC only rod. It can be made to work on an AC machine, but it is designed for DC. 7018AC is available, and reportedly runs very well on AC machines, as it was designed to do.

Do I think that MIG is better than SMAW (Stick)? ABSOLUTELY NOT!! MIG has LOTS of disadvantages compared to stick, ESPECIALLY in a hobby/workshop/repair environment, like I, and I would imagine a good number of us here on TBN, have.

• MIG requires near pristine cleanliness of the metal being welded to make a sound weld...With the correct electrode, Stick can burn right through rust and old paint and dirt and still make a sound weld. Not that it is recommended to weld on unprepared, dirty metal, but Stick can do it. MIG can't even come close in these conditions... it just doesn't work, period. So, if you're using used or dirty, rusty steel, you spend a lot of time grinding and cleaning and doing prep work before you ever even lay your first bead. With SMAW, you probably would be able to wire brush off the rust and dirt, and weld it up, while the MIG guy is still grinding and cleaning.
• MIG is not very good for welding outdoors... the slightest breeze can and will blow your shielding gas away, when this happens, you're doing more damage than good. You can crank up the gas flow, and put up wind breaks, but those stop-gaps will only do so much, if mother nature is intent on moving a little air around. No such problem with SMAW.
• MIG requires that the worksite be close to the machine... sometimes this just isn't possible, or is very difficult to accomplish. You can't have a MIG gun with a 100' lead... NO PROBLEM with SMAW. I guess you could get a spool gun with a 100' lead, but it would cost nearly as much as the MIG machine itself. You can solve nearly any problem if you throw enough money at it.
• With MIG, it is very possible, and really very easy, especially if you don't know how to read the puddle, to lay a perfect "looking" bead, with absolutely NO penetration. Lay the bead, admire it's beauty, and your new skills, and then the part falls apart in your hands. SMAW, by it's nature, penetrates better. You might make an ugly weld with SMAW when you're beginning, but chances are it will be stronger than a beginner's "pretty" MIG weld.
• I find it harder to get the MIG machine "dialed in" on the settings for the metal being welded than for SMAW. SMAW only requires that you set the amperage... MIG requires that you set both the wire speed (Current/Amperage) AND the Voltage. Watching your puddle and arc and Knowing and understanding which setting you need to adjust and how much to adjust is definitely an aquired skill. Sure, you can look at the chart on the door, but that just puts you in the ballpark usually. To get it really dialed in where it's *right* is a skill. With SMAW, I can just look at what I'm going to weld, set the machine, and I'm usually within a few amps. But, I've been welding SMAW a LOT longer than I've been welding MIG, so setting the MIG machine is still a skill that I'm developing.
• For a given SMAW machine, MIG requires the purchase of a machine that usually is at least twice the price or more to get the same capability as far as thickness capacity. MIG takes more amps to do the same job as SMAW...
• MIG requires shielding gas... which means even more money to get and stay properly equipped.

Advantages of MIG:

• MIG is usually easier to get an arc started... you just point the gun and pull the trigger... not much skill required there.
• MIG is easier to make a pretty bead with... no doubt about it. Notice that I didn't say "strong" or "sound".
• MIG is much better for thin metal than SMAW, and is the main reason I bought mine.
• Don't have to change electrodes... You can weld continuously, up until the thermal cutout kicks. Not that you would normally ever need to do that.

In an Industrial setting, I can see why MIG has replaced SMAW... it's all clean metal, indoors, and big powerful welding machines... Not the little 120V or even 220V machines that most of us might have. Perfect conditions for the MIG process to be used. Couple that with no need to change electrodes every few minutes, and it's easy to see how production can be increased with MIG. But how many of us are doing production line welding in our little shops and garages?

Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against MIG... as you can see, I've got one myself. But if I ever had to get rid of one of my machines... See Ya Later MIG... it was fun.

 

[Sully2]

Relax, I certainly don't think that you're the smartest... And I KNOW that I'm not either... if I was, I wouldn't be in this mud hole of a thread. But here I am, even after I said I wouldn't...

Are you finished? I certainly hope so..and Im positive others on the BB hope the same!

 

[RobJ]

so what is that metal box for?

 

[xlr82v2]

It's the firebox for the bbq pit that I built...

 

[xlr82v2]

Are you finished? I certainly hope so..and Im positive others on the BB hope the same!

Yes, Sparky, er, I mean Sully, I'm done trying to talk to you. Further attempts to add to your already superior knowledge would be futile.

Have a great day today and a better one tomorrow.

 

[LetsRoll]

Yes, Sparky, er, I mean Sully, I'm done trying to talk to you. Further attempts to add to your already superior knowledge would be futile.

Have a great day today and a better one tomorrow.

Attacking a TBN member is against TBN policy. Wish you would stop your personel attacks on him. Your going to get this thread locked up if you continue with the direction of your attacks.