Welding On 100 lb Propane Tank Questions

[GinNB]

A sue-happy apprentice with anger-management problems would tend to get fired occasionally methinks. Or maybe he just has problems saying and doing the right things at the right time. You know, the tortured artist type.

 

[Bedlam]

WOW Sure not good advertising indeed.
interesting but all not that great in my opinion, But does show the different used to recycle things.Around her a 55 gal forum serves the same function. Those plastic ones don't last long tho.LOL
found this to be a lesser threatening warning.
MATERIAL AND PHOTOS ON THIS SITE ARE THE COPYRIGHTED PROPERTY OF HARBOR FREIGHT TOOLS AND MAY NOT BE USED WITHOUT THE PRIOR WRITTEN PERMISSION OF HARBOR FREIGHT TOOLS.

all in the wording

 

[Berniep]

Ok. Back to the cutting of the propane tank. Propane tanks are way, way, WAY safer to cut(but safer here doesn't mean completly safe) than something that has had oil or gas in it. First, as has been mentioned, a propane tank does not contain an explosive mixture until you let air in. An oil or gas tank has residue that get in the pores of the metal, especially oil, that can form an explosive mixture when heated by grinding or cutting. We had a guy near me killed when he attempted to cut an old oil tank apart after it had been sitting open with the 6 inch fill and drain open for 20 YEARS. As you cut, the metal heats up and releases vapor which when it get to the corect ratio will explode. Propane doesn't do this. BUT that doen't mean there cant be coatings on the inside of the tank that can vaporize and cause something similar although I have never heard of it happening. Filling it with water once will ensure that all the propane is out of it What I do is take the valve out and run an air line in it for a while then drill a hole to accept a reciprocating saw(low heat build up).

 

[dfkrug]

For those who're interested in making something similar to Mr. Unger's firepits for a whole lot less, I'd suggest asking your local machinists about which one has an abrasive water jet.

Cutting the patterns in a cylinder might be tricky, but I imagine that some experimentation with the gizmos that welding shops use to rotate and weld around pipes would yield good results if there isn't a ready-made commercial alternative. Heck, even mounting a cylinder on a sliding bearing and moving it under the jet by hand might be fun. Maybe free-form with a handheld jet? Sounds like fun.

With the availability of reasonably priced plasma cutters, you see more and
more plasma art at street fairs and flea markets. If you are good with the
torch free-hand, cutting metal is like drawing, esp with thinner metals.
I use guides and templates mostly myself. I wish I were more artistic.

When I made my diesel fueling tank from a propane cyl, I could cut about
2" per second, which is not all that fast. If I made those flames, I would
use some patterns cut from 1/4" MDF with a sabre saw. I like how they
came out. I doubt most artists are using water jets.

 

[johntunger]

Well, it's obvious that I pissed a lot of people off here by posting about the copyright on my fire pits and I'm sorry if you feel I was out of line in the way that I went about it. I think the readers of this forum and I may have more in common than is suggested my my "long hair." For those of you who felt angered by what I posted earlier, here is a more personal explanation of where I'm coming from:

I am a small business owner who supports a family, pays taxes, and supports other local businesses through the sale of my firepits. I have an assistant who depends on the income I provide him to make his house payment. I buy the tanks at the scrapyard, paying a premium to have them cut and delivered (I've spent over $10,000 at the scrapyard this year alone). I am one of the larger customers for my local freight company.

There are not a lot of successful businesses or job opportunities in the area of Michigan where I live, and the income I make from my art and spend in the community is important to the people I support. The fact that I am able to sell my work globally and bring money into the Michigan economy (one of the worst in the nation) is something that I am very proud of and I feel pretty good about the fact that I can help people pay their bills while larger corporate companies are laying people off left and right.

I built my business up from literally nothing by busting my *** 18 hours a day, 365 days a year for most of a decade. The fact that I haven't held a job in ten years isn't laziness, it's a desire to work harder and longer to do something I care about and find ways to make it useful to others as well.

bx2230orange wrote:

Maybe instead of threatening to sue you should thank him for letting people know about your site.....I know I would have never heard of it or you if it hadn't been for excelegator.

I agree that a link is a valuable thing especially since I make about 98% of my sales over the internet. Links to the site are one of the ways people discover me. On the other hand, I feel like there's a difference between a link that says "Hey, here's a cool thing, go check it out" and one that says "Look at the prices guys! Go get more propane tanks!"

Doing some research I found this site.
The Beach Burner Portable Bonfire: 24 and 30 inch Recycled Steel Fire Pits: ArtBuzz
Look at the prices guys! Go get more propane tanks!

What upset me isn't the idea that someone might make a similar firepit for their own use, but the words "Go get more propane tanks," which to me suggests commercial exploitation of the idea. I'm not worried about individuals who make their own, for their own use.

The two things that concern me most are not the potential lost income that would come from copies of the pits. They are this:

1. I have built a world-wide reputation with my designs. If people copy them and don't do as good a job as I do, their work could be mistaken for mine and hurt that reputation.

2. I have contracts with my resellers that specify the minimum price at which these items can be sold and if other people undersell me, that hurts my relationship with those vendors.

I did get an email from someone who visited from excelagator's link and was excited about the idea of copying the designs as closely as he could and marketing them at 1/3rd the price. Which is fine if you're a hobbyist but doesn't work very well if you're running a business. My prices are based on what I need to make in order to offer a reasonable discount to wholesalers and still bring in enough money to support a full-size metal shop and pay the bills.

Again, I apologize if my earlier post left a bad taste in some mouths, but perhaps it makes better sense to some of you now.

 

[gemini5362]

Well, it's obvious that I pissed a lot of people off here by posting about the copyright on my fire pits and I'm sorry if you feel I was out of line in the way that I went about it. I think the readers of this forum and I may have more in common than is suggested my my "long hair." For those of you who felt angered by what I posted earlier, here is a more personal explanation of where I'm coming from:

I am a small business owner who supports a family, pays taxes, and supports other local businesses through the sale of my firepits. I have an assistant who depends on the income I provide him to make his house payment. I buy the tanks at the scrapyard, paying a premium to have them cut and delivered (I've spent over $10,000 at the scrapyard this year alone). I am one of the larger customers for my local freight company.

There are not a lot of successful businesses or job opportunities in the area of Michigan where I live, and the income I make from my art and spend in the community is important to the people I support. The fact that I am able to sell my work globally and bring money into the Michigan economy (one of the worst in the nation) is something that I am very proud of and I feel pretty good about the fact that I can help people pay their bills while larger corporate companies are laying people off left and right.

I built my business up from literally nothing by busting my *** 18 hours a day, 365 days a year for most of a decade. The fact that I haven't held a job in ten years isn't laziness, it's a desire to work harder and longer to do something I care about and find ways to make it useful to others as well.

bx2230orange wrote:



I agree that a link is a valuable thing especially since I make about 98% of my sales over the internet. Links to the site are one of the ways people discover me. On the other hand, I feel like there's a difference between a link that says "Hey, here's a cool thing, go check it out" and one that says "Look at the prices guys! Go get more propane tanks!"



What upset me isn't the idea that someone might make a similar firepit for their own use, but the words "Go get more propane tanks," which to me suggests commercial exploitation of the idea. I'm not worried about individuals who make their own, for their own use.

The two things that concern me most are not the potential lost income that would come from copies of the pits. They are this:

1. I have built a world-wide reputation with my designs. If people copy them and don't do as good a job as I do, their work could be mistaken for mine and hurt that reputation.

2. I have contracts with my resellers that specify the minimum price at which these items can be sold and if other people undersell me, that hurts my relationship with those vendors.

I did get an email from someone who visited from excelagator's link and was excited about the idea of copying the designs as closely as he could and marketing them at 1/3rd the price. Which is fine if you're a hobbyist but doesn't work very well if you're running a business. My prices are based on what I need to make in order to offer a reasonable discount to wholesalers and still bring in enough money to support a full-size metal shop and pay the bills.

Again, I apologize if my earlier post left a bad taste in some mouths, but perhaps it makes better sense to some of you now.

As I said in my post I reread his post and I took a differnt view of what he said. I can understand why you would think maybe he was talking about commercial applications with the remark about propane tanks. I took an entirely differrent meaning out of that line. I took it to mean that the people in this post are talking about what they do with propane tanks. The original poster felt that your prices were too high for him and was saying that if someone wanted this kind of firepit they need more propane tanks for this and their other projects. To be truthfull the idea of him meaning we needed to get more propane tanks so that we could sell them for a profit never occured to me. It was good that you read the other posts and came to try and explain your side of it. As someone that is not used to this forum it is easy to get assumptions about what is going on. We actually have a couple of people on this forum that have buisnesses and use the forum to expand that buisness or to help customers who have bought from them. By far the majority of people that post on here are basically just tinkerers that like to build their own stuff or fix their own stuff etc and are sharing knowledge or benefitting from shared knowledge.

 

[GinNB]

With the availability of reasonably priced plasma cutters, you see more and
more plasma art at street fairs and flea markets. If you are good with the
torch free-hand, cutting metal is like drawing, esp with thinner metals.
I use guides and templates mostly myself. I wish I were more artistic.

When I made my diesel fueling tank from a propane cyl, I could cut about
2" per second, which is not all that fast. If I made those flames, I would
use some patterns cut from 1/4" MDF with a sabre saw. I like how they
came out. I doubt most artists are using water jets.

I thought about it a bit more and figured that, given the material being cut and the cylindrical tank, it was most likely by plasma, especially with the freehand design. It'd be tricky to automate without a computer-controlled help. It is pretty intricate when you look at it 3D. It just ticked me off to see a fellow get all lawyered-up over what was basically a simple wisecrack.

 

[gemini5362]

I thought about it a bit more and figured that, given the material being cut and the cylindrical tank, it was most likely by plasma, especially with the freehand design. It'd be tricky to automate without a computer-controlled help. It is pretty intricate when you look at it 3D. It just ticked me off to see a fellow get all lawyered-up over what was basically a simple wisecrack.

there are actually quite a few people who fail to see simple humor in things that affect their livelihood. While I dont aprove of what he said. I can understand why he flared up so fast.

 

[AlanB]

John, in the FWIW I like your second post an awful lot more, and can sincerly respect your position. I have watched several of my "ideas" become reality, and watched others profit from them, while I sat on the side and wished I had more aggressively marketed or pushed.

Working one now for that matter, and not sure how to protect it enough that it will not be copied by some chinese company that cannot spell OSHA or EPA, and is not having to deal with the tax situation that a us based company has to work under, or the constant threat of lawsuits. (I will stop here so I don't go off on a political rant )

If you want to see some aggravation, go look for "lockdown securities" they built the metal benders that were piece by piece copied by either the chinese or the indians and now being sold by HF for less then you could probably buy the steel to build the thing with in the US. Of course, that is another one I chuckle about when the guy told me how he "invented" those benders, he did not appreciate it when I pointed out the similarities to a Hossfield unit, or the fact that many of the German blacksmith shops I worked around had similar units built well prior to WWII.

I definetely respect what you are doing, and can understand where you are coming from, just don't think that initial approach will go over so well with the group of folks here. With this group, I think if you had said, hey, I am trying to make an honest living here, please don't undercut me, I think most here would surely respect that.

That said, hang around here a while, I bet you learn some stuff, while at the same time I am sure many of us would learn from your experiences.

And if you want, I made a pretty cool metal twister that I would be happy to share with you if you wanted to add that too some of your work.

 

[excelagator]

John Tunger,

I can see where my post could be directing towards copying your designs, for that I apologize. I have a off-the-wall sense of humor and that can be sometimes hard to take. My statement was a joke and nothing more.

I found info on the net looking for cleaning out my old tanks out. I stumbled upon yours. I thought they are quite unique and creative. Yes I saw the price of your creation and got "sticker shock". I have a background in manufacturing and purchasing. I worked on prototype parts and because of it I tend to breakdown things to their simplest form.

You say that you get the tanks from a scrapyard. $10,000 is either alot of tanks or maybe not depending on what they are charging. I know that most scrapyards are reselling those tanks that most throw out. I was wondering if you have contacted LP suppliers for their old tanks or ran an ad for discarded tanks? I know I could find alot of old tanks just drving around here. Just a thought.

Sincerely,
Dan

 

[Iplayfarmer]

Well, it's obvious that I pissed a lot of people off here by posting about the copyright on my fire pits and I'm sorry if you feel I was out of line in the way that I went about it.

I've got to hand it to you. Posting back with your follow-up explanation took a lot of brass, and I respect you a lot for it. A lesser man would have cut his losses and run from what I saw as a true to life first class flame job going on in this thread. My opinion of you changed after reading your second post.

This could be the beginning of a great relationship. It's obvious from your website that you've got a lot of talent and experience, and that you could have a lot to offer a group like this. Hopefully you can come to see this group for the resource for ideas and support that it can be and less of a threat to your success.

There are a number of members on this site with an entrapraneurial spirit who I'm sure empathize with your concerns. You'll find that for the most part, members on TBN will respect your rights. Those who don't, probably wouldn't be helped anyway.

Welcome to TBN! Please look around and let's help each other.

 

[dynasim]

I gotta say that I am not that impressed with his followup.

Firepits made from propane tanks with a decorative edge are not original, unique, nor any advancement to society.....

EXCEPT for the artistic component.

Threatening to sue someone when there is no basis for a lawsuit is economic terrorism.

He has no right to a monopoly, nor the right to make monopolistic profits, on such a concept. There are other "artists" in the US.

My advice is to him would be to get good at all the things necessary to make a business work(procurement, manufacuring, logistics, marketing, brand development, etc) and eliminate the incentive(monopolistic prices) for someone to build these beyond our borders by lowering the prices. Otherwise, he will be toast as soon as his business gets big enough to make it worthwhile to take.

What his actions and threats do is ensure that his competitors will be foreign, rather than domestic.

Chris

 

[excelagator]

Ok got a backyard engineering question.........

What size shaft would you use for axles in this thing. I have to get some pillow block bearings. I thought 1" soild for the axles, but I am thinking 100 gallons = 800 lbs for water allow that is a bit small???

Dan

 

[Treemonkey1000]

Not being a metal expert but I would think 1" would be over kill. With the caveat of how you run it and rod type. Soft iron rod would be a little weak compared to a rod made of hardened metal. Hardened truck axles are in the 1" range. As a matter of fact maybe use an old truck axle if it is long enough. Are you going completely through the tank from one end to the other with the axle? Or just welding stub axles on the end of the tank? I am sure smarter folk than me can better direct you. Just as an after thought why not pack it with concrete or sand. Water is 8lbs to the gallon where sand or concrete is a good bit heavier. Unless of course you want to drain the beast to move it often.

 

[excelagator]

Thanks Tree monkey,

I was going to just weld stub axles on and not through the tank. The top side has a good bit of metal there. The bottom is not. I could get weld a few gussets to reinforce the axle to the tank.

Dan

 

[Treemonkey1000]

Don't forget to take pictures of the project then.

 

[wowbw7]

I built a similar lawn roller last year out of a propane tank I found out in the trees. I drilled a 3/4 inch hole in the center of both ends, stuck a 3/4 cold rolled rod thru the holes, and welded it solid (and watertight) to the tank on both ends with about 6 inches sticking out each end. for pillow blocks, i used blocks of UHMW plastic i bought on Ebay for cheap. 3/4 inch hole in the center, and two 5/16 inch holes to mount them to the frame and voila...pillow blocks. put a flat washer on the outside of the block on each end, with a pin thru the 3/4 rod to keep the tank centered and there ya go. i don't know the gallonage of the tank, (16" diameter, 4-1/2' long) but full of water it works perfectlyto compress dirt after reseeding. that UHMW polymer is some tough stuff, but easy as wood to work with. cut, drill, with wood working tools, but the stuff wears like iron. no problems so far......

 

[excelagator]

Boy you guys are hard sells! I will out a soild shaft through.

Treemonkey,
I will get pics up for ya!

Dan

 

[Treemonkey1000]

Hey this is your baby do it how you want that's part of the fun. . Going with the shaft through the whole thing might be tougher to get a water proof seal wouldn't it? So how long is a 100lb tank?

 

[GinNB]

Rod is cheap- go with a shaft all the way through. It's a LOT stronger than two stubshafts welded to the side and you won't have to worry about runout (wobbles) when the shaft travels through the pillow blocks. Also, 1" solid mild steel is none too strong (IMHO) for an 800lb roller, especially if there's much of a gap between the side of the roller and the bearings. It'd last a while for mild use, but it wouldn't cost that much more for something that survive the occasional "ooops" moment.