welding

[Sully2]

IMHO...the origional poster needs the "basic" stick welder...it will do all that he NEEDS and will last him HIS lifetime...BUT.......I can see that down the road he will want and use something different.

Im at the end of 3 weeks of a 7 week welding course...and with the exception of one evening..its all been stick welding. 7011 rods until the last class and then we switched to 6011's....and then had to get used to the differences between the 2 rods. This is from a guy that for 40 years could do NOTHING but "stick rods"....couldnt run even 1 inch of bead. I got so I was "pretty good"...not GREAT...but .."OK". So much so that I even wnt and looked at Hobart 235XL's (AC/DC arc machine) thinking about future upgrades.

FIRST I have to get my outdoor work area constructed ( it will only be 12 x 12 and I'll be working in front of it in the gravel drive...but its STILL gonna set me back $3000...

Thursday evening...did my first MIG...using a "BIG" MIG welder and 75/25 gas. The SECOND bead I ran...looked better than ANY I had run in 3 weeks with the arc equipment! At the end of the 3 hr class..I knew the 235 was OUT...and for a future upgrade I'll go with either a Miler 210 MIG..or the Hobart 210 Iroman MIG outfit.

MIG welding is ..JUST....TOO...EASY to get a first rate job from.

 

[California]

7011 rods until the last class and then we switched to 6011's....and then had to get used to the differences between the 2 rods.

What difference did you see in application?

 

[Sully2]

What difference did you see in application?

BTW: I meant to say 7018 rods..but I cant get back in there to edit that post??

Anyway..6011's seem to cool down quicker...beads look a little "rougher"...little more splatter but not anything excessive at all....more penetration also.

7018 bead stays HOT lots longer and seems to ..??.."flow"..??..better. Much nicer looking bead...doesnt penetrate quite as well.

From what I understand some guys will make a root pass with a 6011...chip off the old cold flux and then make a second pass with a 7018 for the "cleaness". I never tried that..and IF thats true I can understand it well enough.

The BIGGEST difference "to me" was just the change...two different characteristic's to them and getting used to one..then switching...but ya got to remember..I aint no welder by a long shot...lol

 

[Ken S.in Ky.]

the pipe welders i work with run their wire feed machines on heavy wall chrome at 480 inches of wire per minute. this is hand welding mind you! if you struck an arc on 1/4 inch material with that much amperage, it would blow a hole right through it. try that with a stick welder! by the way, they also have sub arc machines that will put down a bead 2 inches wide and 1/4 inch thick in ONE pass. try that with a stick welder...... you are only limited by power and budget when it comes to wire welding, it is far superior to stick in ALL aspects. stick welding is 1920's technology. the ONLY time we use stick in our shop is on oddball alloys you can't get wire for, otherwise we tig everything else. 14 welders in our shop producing between 150 to 200 diameter inches a day. (1- 10" weld = 10 diameter inches) and i can count the times they burn rod in a year on 2 hands.

The original poster (Teach) said that his budget was limited and I personnely figured by that he was looking for the most usable machine for the least amount of $$$. I dought very much that he he is going to become a pipe line welder or even a professional welder for that matter. He was posting that he desired to weld up some projects like some of the guys here have posted,they have made.

 

[thingy]

Well if you got a stick machine[dc capable] you got a tig machine,you just switch leads on machine,dcen goes to torch,,you get you a bottle of argon,gages,flow meter,,hose,and a block,,the block is where you clamp your stinger and hook your gas in and tig torch in.You gotta scratch start it,but you got a tig machine.
Stick machines are much simpler,,no moving parts,,mig machines for a beginner can be a mess unless he's got someone to help him adjust it and trouble shoot it when something goes wrong.
Yeah,stick welding takes more practice than mig,,but not much to do your average backyard repair,,and gotta say it again,,if you don't know what your doing with a mig,,you are going to make some welds that break pretty easy,,looks can be decieving with a mig weld,,they are made for thinner metal,you can weld thicker stuff,but you gotta turn it up,,and than it ain't easy anymores.
I can weld steel from 1/8 inch thick on up with a stick,,the only time I would ever need a mig is if I was working with thin sheet metal,,and I don't. So if the man is going to be building cars,would tell him to get a mig,,but if he ain't would tell him to get an dc stick welder,,get a lincoln / hobart/miller brand,get one that puts out about 180-200 amps dc,,,,thingy

 

[fattyfat1]

The original poster (Teach) said that his budget was limited and I personnely figured by that he was looking for the most usable machine for the least amount of $$$. I dought very much that he he is going to become a pipe line welder or even a professional welder for that matter. He was posting that he desired to weld up some projects like some of the guys here have posted,they have made.

this was well understood! the only thing that limits what you can weld with a mig is $. maybe you should re-read my post. the point i was trying to make is he is much better off with a mig machine because if he is new to welding, he will have much greater sucess with what he is trying to weld. he will be money ahead if he buys as much mig that he can afford. you gotta burn 10,000 rods to be a decent stick welder- thats expensive. so is a portable rod oven to keep your rod dry. with a mig all you really need is a spool of wire. you could even get "fancy" and hook up a bottle of gas after you dial your flux core technique.
as for getting it dialed in, mine has 2 knobs- wire speed and amperage. plus when i lift the side panel where the spool is, there is a chart for beginners w/ metal thicknesses and settings for those "complicated" two knobs.
my small machine is a lincoln 120. as far as penetration goes, if it is set correctly, you can easily weld 1/4" material if the machine is set right. i welded my bucket hooks on with this machine. 1 root pass, 2 stringers, and a cap. i challenge anyone to come and try to knock them off w/a sledge w/out bending the bucket. i also used that "sheetmetal" machine in the field at my buddy's blueberry farm to re-weld his sprayer arms. he paid someone to "fix" them and it lasted a week. he has 90 acres of berries- everytime he goes down a row the arms hit the bushes and spring out of the way. this happens THOUSANDS of times in a day of laying down roundup. two years later, the welds still hold. you can pick up this same machine at homedepot or lowes for under 350$. mig machines are BETTER in every aspect of the welding process. you just have to match your machine to your application.
if you don't believe me, try this little challenge. go out and look at your tractors welds. inspect them very closely and if you can find even one stick weld on any part of that tractor that you didn't put on yourself, call me a liar. also, try your truck or car,boat or anything that has factory welds for that matter, and get back to me with your results.

 

[Sully2]

All I personally am sure of is that Im sticking with wire fed welders! I'll always keep the small rig I have now for use with fluxcore wire...but if / when the time comes that I "need" to do heavy stuff...its a jumbo MIG setup fo rme...and I dont mean anything in the 180 amp range. 210 amps will be the min....Ive seen what a much bigger machine can do now.

Stick welders are good..no doubt about it..and lots cheaper also..but just as both of my instructers have told us ( and they both weld for a living) ...no one is going to pay GOOD money for a guy to keep chaning electrodes (sicks) one after the other...when for they same $$ they get a man that can lay wire until he drops! ( Lots of feet of weld in a 10 lb spool!!!)

 

[MrJimi]

All I personally am sure of is that Im sticking with wire fed welders! I'll always keep the small rig I have now for use with fluxcore wire...but if / when the time comes that I "need" to do heavy stuff...its a jumbo MIG setup fo rme...and I dont mean anything in the 180 amp range. 210 amps will be the min....Ive seen what a much bigger machine can do now.

Stick welders are good..no doubt about it..and lots cheaper also..but just as both of my instructers have told us ( and they both weld for a living) ...no one is going to pay GOOD money for a guy to keep chaning electrodes (sicks) one after the other...when for they same $$ they get a man that can lay wire until he drops! ( Lots of feet of weld in a 10 lb spool!!!)

I use a 11 pound spool of .023 wire in my Hobart 140 and I use a 44 pound spool of .035 wire in my Millermatic 200, They do last a long time, and I can see no use to go back to a stick welder at all
Jim

 

[AlanB]

Hey Fatty, not trying to argue, just sharing something I found fascinating.

Go to Wal-Mart or Sams and check out the Cosco folding Aluminum ladders.

Yep, folding ALUMINUM.... All stick welded by some little lady in China.

As to the arguing point, while a Lincoln 140 may weld 1/4" I do not believe that machine is rated to weld that heavy.

 

[sandman2234]

"if you don't believe me, try this little challenge. go out and look at your tractors welds. inspect them very closely and if you can find even one stick weld on any part of that tractor that you didn't put on yourself, call me a liar. also, try your truck or car,boat or anything that has factory welds for that matter, and get back to me with your results."

For that challenge, how about adding that was done by a human? Or maybe in a backyard? Or as a repair, not a new manufacture?

Many years ago, I tried to help the guy across the street with his Greyhound bus conversion. He needed a gas tank for his generator that fit in a small area. Steel would rust, I couldn't weld aluminum, so I opted for S/S. Priced it, decided that wouldn't work either. Priced getting a sheet of 1/8", sheared, broke, and welded and that worked. Welding shop welded it with an aluminum mig, I filled it with water and it leaked badly. They rewelded it four times before I decided to try one of the welders at a friends shop. I ground it down and he welded it up with a mig. Leaked worse! Rewelded it 3 more times before I called Miller again, who had told me the mig would work...and then they said it was borderline with the 1/8". I started taking another class, learning TIG, and bought a used machine. Tig fixed it, by a rookie welder, with only one try.
Reason for the story, is their MIG welds looked a lot better than my rookie tig welding, but you just never know about a Mig, till it is too late.
David from jax

 

[Sully2]

Many years ago, I tried to help the guy across the street with his Greyhound bus conversion. He needed a gas tank for his generator that fit in a small area. Steel would rust, I couldn't weld aluminum, so I opted for S/S. Priced it, decided that wouldn't work either.
David from jax

Fuel tanks for engines..gensets..etc have been made from STEEL longer than the internet was even a wet dream..????

 

[thingy]

Well,you only need a rod oven for low/hy rods,[7018],you don't need one for 6010 6011,etc,,,as a matter of fact if you bake one of those type rods the coating will fall off.
The reason you don't see stick welds on much of anything anymores is because,they can't teach robots to do it,,,and mig is faster,but not any better,,fast is the key word,,they are not welding gas pipelines together,which is still mostly done with stick.
The reason you see a lotta tig in fab shops is one it makes a very good weld,what you see is generally what you get,,and because you can weld about any material and any thickness with it,,but it is very slow.
Every process has its place,,and for a beginner,,nothing more simple than stick,take a class,or have someone show you a little to get started.
As far as somebody not wanting to pay somebody to change rods,,,yeah,that makes sense from a money point of view,,but consider this,,,its alot harder to repair a weld than do it right the first time,and some welds if they fail can lead to somebody dying.But yeah,get some mexicans who can only flat weld with a mig and pay them 7 bucks an hour and you might save a few bucks in the short term,,,thinking like that works on the production line but not on pressure piping and critical welds..thingy

 

[fattyfat1]

Many years ago, I tried to help the guy across the street with his Greyhound bus conversion. He needed a gas tank for his generator that fit in a small area. Steel would rust, I couldn't weld aluminum, so I opted for S/S. Priced it, decided that wouldn't work either. Priced getting a sheet of 1/8", sheared, broke, and welded and that worked. Welding shop welded it with an aluminum mig, I filled it with water and it leaked badly. They rewelded it four times before I decided to try one of the welders at a friends shop. I ground it down and he welded it up with a mig. Leaked worse! Rewelded it 3 more times before I called Miller again, who had told me the mig would work...and then they said it was borderline with the 1/8". I started taking another class, learning TIG, and bought a used machine. Tig fixed it, by a rookie welder, with only one try.
Reason for the story, is their MIG welds looked a lot better than my rookie tig welding, but you just never know about a Mig, till it is too late.
David from jax[/QUOTE]

there is a big difference between a farmer with a welding machine in his shop for fixing broken implements, and a union pipe welder. with that in mind, with the thousands of piping systems we build per year, how many do you think leak? NONE, otherwise it's someones job. when you weld pipe, thats the thing, the customer doesn't like it to leak. you might want to rethink that line about "you just never know about mig till it's too late.", it's all about choosing the right tool for the job. i tig every day, and your decision to tig for your above mentioned project was spot on. you can't expect a flux cored 110 mig to hold liquid unless you are REALLY,REALLY good. if i had the choice between two machines for fixing that, i would have done the same. with 110 mig, structurally it will be very strong, but too much slag will become included into the weld. with the machine hooked up to gas, things will get better. for repairing leaks and cracks that need to hold fluid, there is no better choice than tig root/wire out. for the record, it would be very hard for anyone to weld wire w/ a 110 machine on your above project. with proper technique and some practice, you would be pleasantly surprised how great these little machines are.

 

[fattyfat1]

.But yeah,get some mexicans who can only flat weld with a mig and pay them 7 bucks an hour and you might save a few bucks in the short term,,,thinking like that works on the production line but not on pressure piping and critical welds..thingy

first off, i would like to say that i work in the PREMIER pipe fab shop on the west coast...........
i served a 10,000 hour apprenticeship, and have been a journeyman pipefitter and welder, & foreman for about 10 years.......
i am a SNT-TC-1A certified level 1 & 2 visual weld inspector.....
i spend my days inspecting and supervising the fabrication of pressure vessels and boiler code pipe, high pressure steam lines, and just about anything that has to do w/ pressure piping and critical welds.....
i am also assistant coordinator to local 26 jatc training dept. so i get to teach apprentices all about pipe welding, soldering, brazing.....
so tell me thingy, what is it you know about welding again? sounds like you were telling me about what i already do for 60+ hours a week......
i especially liked your racist and stereotypical comment about mexicans, that was a really nice touch!

 

[thingy]

I think we are talking back yard type welding here,short circuiting mig,welded by a beginner,,,not spray transfer process,or welds made by skilled welders,that the key here in my opinion.
I've welded pipe in postion with mig,[short circuiting process],,welded a good bit of it,,took several bend and tensile tests with it,,,,not saying you can't make a high quality weld with mig,,,just saying for a beginer it might not be the best choice,tig wouldn't be either,,,and mig will fool you even if you have welded with other processes before,first time I tried to weld with it years ago,grabbed gun which was already set up,,laid a few beads down,,man! looked good!,,easy,,to easy,,,set me up a tee type test,,ran a bead in it,turned it over and hit it with a hammer,broke like glass,weld wasn't even fused to plate on one side,,,,talked to a guy,,he said turn it up,,showed me how to move gun.But like I said,when you turn it up,it ain't easy to weld overhead anymores,,,thingy

 

[thingy]

Well mister fatty fat,,[we gotta work on your name],,,glad to hear I got a fellow inspector here!,,,I'm an asnt level III, in p.t. and m.t.,[certified by asnt],,I am also a c.w.i. of 23 years now,,I have two ***. degrees one in welding management and one in welding technology,,,went to level 1 and level two schools in r.t.[x-ray] and u.t...and etc,etc.

I started out welding gas pipelines,,been certified many times on pipe up and down with stick [and yes mig],never was a tig welder,,,
O.K.,,,now its your turn again,,,thingy

 

[mars1952]

Well since this is turning into a stick vs wire welding rant I guess I will throw in my humble opinion. TEACH, get as much MIG welder as you can afford. Get a gas setup right away if you can afford it. Forget about a stick welder they are just too hard to use. I have had a Dayton 230 AC/180 DC welder for about 25 years maybe 30. I have patched and fabricated many things with it and my welds never break even though they are ugly but it is just too hard to use. I don't weld often enough to stay in practice. Usually at the end of the project I will start laying down some decent welds.
So I was reworking my FEL bucket and I got fed up with my stick welder and went out and bought a Miller 251 with a 75/25% CO2 Argon gas setup. I figured that after 25 years it was time for an upgrade. I couldn't believe how easy it was to use. No more scratching, no more stuck welding rods, no more trapped pools of slag, no chipping and a 33 pound spool of wire seems to last forever. After 15 minutes of practice I was laying down the best welds of my life. I may never use my stick welder again and I have about 50 pounds of rods left. To illustrate how easy it is to learn to weld with a MIG I am going to attach 4 pictures of my daughters first welds with the Miller 251. She had never welded or done any metal work before and she only had about 20 minutes of lessons before she did these welds.
Marshall
P.S. About a day after I bought my MIG I went to the local scrap yard to look for welding project fodder and I found a whole pallet of welding wire. It had been scrapped by a local welding shop for some reason but it looked usable. I bought about 330 pounds for 18 cents a pound. All of the wire is for mild steel. The wire is .035 and .045. Some is bare wire and some is dual shield wire. Unfortunately there wasn't any flux core wire that I could run without gas.
When my kids clean out my shop after I die they will wonder why I bought so much welding wire because I don't think that I will ever use it all. I have only used about 10 pounds so far.

 

[thingy]

Hey,that ain't bad at all,and the welds don't look all that bad either!!
JUST KIDDING YOU!
you oughta have her make a tee,[fillit weld],and turn it over and hit it with a hammer,,if it just bends than you are doing a good job,,[or she is],,,
yeah,no argument stick is a higher skill level,,and no argument that you can't make a good weld with a mig.
Just think what that girl could do if she took a couple welding classes! thingy

 

[fattyfat1]

I started out welding gas pipelines,,been certified many times on pipe up and down with stick [and yes mig],never was a tig welder,,,
O.K.,,,now its your turn again,,,thingy[/QUOTE]

you ought to know better as a cwi and level three that there is no such thing as a downhill test for the U.A. how did you get certified on that? that is the fastest way to get kicked out of test, because it is against the RULES. with all this experience here, tell me again why he should buy a stick machine. a good quality short arc machine with gas is good enough for quality root passes with spray/pulse over the top for hotpass and cap to produce x-ray quality pressure vessel code pipe, why can't he weld tractor parts w/it? it's easier to learn, the welds look 10 times better, it's structurally sound, and probably cheaper in the long run. spend a little more money now, feel like a rockstar cause your welds look good, and forego all the frustration of burning those "10,000 rods" to get a decent bead.

 

[thingy]

Fatty fat,,who said anything about the U.A.? I was a pipeline welder not a pipefitter where I believe U.A. comes into play. We certified to a.p.i. 1104 and the gas companys specs,,the gas company is the one that certifys you,[in my case.] pipefitters are certified to section IX of asme code. When I go out on a job I certify pipefitters,,and not to U.A.,,but to section IX. Boilermakers also are certified to section IX,,their u.a. deal is called common arc,,how it works is they certify in a group,,companys representives wittness the test,[might be 50 different companies represented in the week or so they do this],,if they agree,they sign off,than that guy is certified with that company for a period of time. The U.A.[think thats what you talking about] is supposed to work the same way,but not as good I don't guess,,,anyways what I'm teaching you here is,,you certify to a code. And another lession is,,most gas line is welded downhill,with stick. I am not in a union,I am a contractor by the way. thingy