welding

[Sully2]

IMHO...the origional poster needs the "basic" stick welder...it will do all that he NEEDS and will last him HIS lifetime...BUT.......I can see that down the road he will want and use something different.

Im at the end of 3 weeks of a 7 week welding course...and with the exception of one evening..its all been stick welding. 7011 rods until the last class and then we switched to 6011's....and then had to get used to the differences between the 2 rods. This is from a guy that for 40 years could do NOTHING but "stick rods"....couldnt run even 1 inch of bead. I got so I was "pretty good"...not GREAT...but .."OK". So much so that I even wnt and looked at Hobart 235XL's (AC/DC arc machine) thinking about future upgrades.

FIRST I have to get my outdoor work area constructed ( it will only be 12 x 12 and I'll be working in front of it in the gravel drive...but its STILL gonna set me back $3000...

Thursday evening...did my first MIG...using a "BIG" MIG welder and 75/25 gas. The SECOND bead I ran...looked better than ANY I had run in 3 weeks with the arc equipment! At the end of the 3 hr class..I knew the 235 was OUT...and for a future upgrade I'll go with either a Miler 210 MIG..or the Hobart 210 Iroman MIG outfit.

MIG welding is ..JUST....TOO...EASY to get a first rate job from.

 

[California]

7011 rods until the last class and then we switched to 6011's....and then had to get used to the differences between the 2 rods.

What difference did you see in application?

 

[Sully2]

What difference did you see in application?

BTW: I meant to say 7018 rods..but I cant get back in there to edit that post??

Anyway..6011's seem to cool down quicker...beads look a little "rougher"...little more splatter but not anything excessive at all....more penetration also.

7018 bead stays HOT lots longer and seems to ..??.."flow"..??..better. Much nicer looking bead...doesnt penetrate quite as well.

From what I understand some guys will make a root pass with a 6011...chip off the old cold flux and then make a second pass with a 7018 for the "cleaness". I never tried that..and IF thats true I can understand it well enough.

The BIGGEST difference "to me" was just the change...two different characteristic's to them and getting used to one..then switching...but ya got to remember..I aint no welder by a long shot...lol

 

[Ken S.in Ky.]

the pipe welders i work with run their wire feed machines on heavy wall chrome at 480 inches of wire per minute. this is hand welding mind you! if you struck an arc on 1/4 inch material with that much amperage, it would blow a hole right through it. try that with a stick welder! by the way, they also have sub arc machines that will put down a bead 2 inches wide and 1/4 inch thick in ONE pass. try that with a stick welder...... you are only limited by power and budget when it comes to wire welding, it is far superior to stick in ALL aspects. stick welding is 1920's technology. the ONLY time we use stick in our shop is on oddball alloys you can't get wire for, otherwise we tig everything else. 14 welders in our shop producing between 150 to 200 diameter inches a day. (1- 10" weld = 10 diameter inches) and i can count the times they burn rod in a year on 2 hands.

The original poster (Teach) said that his budget was limited and I personnely figured by that he was looking for the most usable machine for the least amount of $$$. I dought very much that he he is going to become a pipe line welder or even a professional welder for that matter. He was posting that he desired to weld up some projects like some of the guys here have posted,they have made.

 

[thingy]

Well if you got a stick machine[dc capable] you got a tig machine,you just switch leads on machine,dcen goes to torch,,you get you a bottle of argon,gages,flow meter,,hose,and a block,,the block is where you clamp your stinger and hook your gas in and tig torch in.You gotta scratch start it,but you got a tig machine.
Stick machines are much simpler,,no moving parts,,mig machines for a beginner can be a mess unless he's got someone to help him adjust it and trouble shoot it when something goes wrong.
Yeah,stick welding takes more practice than mig,,but not much to do your average backyard repair,,and gotta say it again,,if you don't know what your doing with a mig,,you are going to make some welds that break pretty easy,,looks can be decieving with a mig weld,,they are made for thinner metal,you can weld thicker stuff,but you gotta turn it up,,and than it ain't easy anymores.
I can weld steel from 1/8 inch thick on up with a stick,,the only time I would ever need a mig is if I was working with thin sheet metal,,and I don't. So if the man is going to be building cars,would tell him to get a mig,,but if he ain't would tell him to get an dc stick welder,,get a lincoln / hobart/miller brand,get one that puts out about 180-200 amps dc,,,,thingy

 

[fattyfat1]

The original poster (Teach) said that his budget was limited and I personnely figured by that he was looking for the most usable machine for the least amount of $$$. I dought very much that he he is going to become a pipe line welder or even a professional welder for that matter. He was posting that he desired to weld up some projects like some of the guys here have posted,they have made.

this was well understood! the only thing that limits what you can weld with a mig is $. maybe you should re-read my post. the point i was trying to make is he is much better off with a mig machine because if he is new to welding, he will have much greater sucess with what he is trying to weld. he will be money ahead if he buys as much mig that he can afford. you gotta burn 10,000 rods to be a decent stick welder- thats expensive. so is a portable rod oven to keep your rod dry. with a mig all you really need is a spool of wire. you could even get "fancy" and hook up a bottle of gas after you dial your flux core technique.
as for getting it dialed in, mine has 2 knobs- wire speed and amperage. plus when i lift the side panel where the spool is, there is a chart for beginners w/ metal thicknesses and settings for those "complicated" two knobs.
my small machine is a lincoln 120. as far as penetration goes, if it is set correctly, you can easily weld 1/4" material if the machine is set right. i welded my bucket hooks on with this machine. 1 root pass, 2 stringers, and a cap. i challenge anyone to come and try to knock them off w/a sledge w/out bending the bucket. i also used that "sheetmetal" machine in the field at my buddy's blueberry farm to re-weld his sprayer arms. he paid someone to "fix" them and it lasted a week. he has 90 acres of berries- everytime he goes down a row the arms hit the bushes and spring out of the way. this happens THOUSANDS of times in a day of laying down roundup. two years later, the welds still hold. you can pick up this same machine at homedepot or lowes for under 350$. mig machines are BETTER in every aspect of the welding process. you just have to match your machine to your application.
if you don't believe me, try this little challenge. go out and look at your tractors welds. inspect them very closely and if you can find even one stick weld on any part of that tractor that you didn't put on yourself, call me a liar. also, try your truck or car,boat or anything that has factory welds for that matter, and get back to me with your results.

 

[Sully2]

All I personally am sure of is that Im sticking with wire fed welders! I'll always keep the small rig I have now for use with fluxcore wire...but if / when the time comes that I "need" to do heavy stuff...its a jumbo MIG setup fo rme...and I dont mean anything in the 180 amp range. 210 amps will be the min....Ive seen what a much bigger machine can do now.

Stick welders are good..no doubt about it..and lots cheaper also..but just as both of my instructers have told us ( and they both weld for a living) ...no one is going to pay GOOD money for a guy to keep chaning electrodes (sicks) one after the other...when for they same $$ they get a man that can lay wire until he drops! ( Lots of feet of weld in a 10 lb spool!!!)

 

[MrJimi]

All I personally am sure of is that Im sticking with wire fed welders! I'll always keep the small rig I have now for use with fluxcore wire...but if / when the time comes that I "need" to do heavy stuff...its a jumbo MIG setup fo rme...and I dont mean anything in the 180 amp range. 210 amps will be the min....Ive seen what a much bigger machine can do now.

Stick welders are good..no doubt about it..and lots cheaper also..but just as both of my instructers have told us ( and they both weld for a living) ...no one is going to pay GOOD money for a guy to keep chaning electrodes (sicks) one after the other...when for they same $$ they get a man that can lay wire until he drops! ( Lots of feet of weld in a 10 lb spool!!!)

I use a 11 pound spool of .023 wire in my Hobart 140 and I use a 44 pound spool of .035 wire in my Millermatic 200, They do last a long time, and I can see no use to go back to a stick welder at all
Jim

 

[AlanB]

Hey Fatty, not trying to argue, just sharing something I found fascinating.

Go to Wal-Mart or Sams and check out the Cosco folding Aluminum ladders.

Yep, folding ALUMINUM.... All stick welded by some little lady in China.

As to the arguing point, while a Lincoln 140 may weld 1/4" I do not believe that machine is rated to weld that heavy.

 

[sandman2234]

"if you don't believe me, try this little challenge. go out and look at your tractors welds. inspect them very closely and if you can find even one stick weld on any part of that tractor that you didn't put on yourself, call me a liar. also, try your truck or car,boat or anything that has factory welds for that matter, and get back to me with your results."

For that challenge, how about adding that was done by a human? Or maybe in a backyard? Or as a repair, not a new manufacture?

Many years ago, I tried to help the guy across the street with his Greyhound bus conversion. He needed a gas tank for his generator that fit in a small area. Steel would rust, I couldn't weld aluminum, so I opted for S/S. Priced it, decided that wouldn't work either. Priced getting a sheet of 1/8", sheared, broke, and welded and that worked. Welding shop welded it with an aluminum mig, I filled it with water and it leaked badly. They rewelded it four times before I decided to try one of the welders at a friends shop. I ground it down and he welded it up with a mig. Leaked worse! Rewelded it 3 more times before I called Miller again, who had told me the mig would work...and then they said it was borderline with the 1/8". I started taking another class, learning TIG, and bought a used machine. Tig fixed it, by a rookie welder, with only one try.
Reason for the story, is their MIG welds looked a lot better than my rookie tig welding, but you just never know about a Mig, till it is too late.
David from jax