Sully2
Veteran Member
sandman2234 said:
Fuel tanks for engines..gensets..etc have been made from STEEL longer than the internet was even a wet dream..????
welding
- Thread starter teach
- Start date
- Views: 25107
Fuel tanks for engines..gensets..etc have been made from STEEL longer than the internet was even a wet dream..????
Well,you only need a rod oven for low/hy rods,[7018],you don't need one for 6010 6011,etc,,,as a matter of fact if you bake one of those type rods the coating will fall off.
The reason you don't see stick welds on much of anything anymores is because,they can't teach robots to do it,,,and mig is faster,but not any better,,fast is the key word,,they are not welding gas pipelines together,which is still mostly done with stick.
The reason you see a lotta tig in fab shops is one it makes a very good weld,what you see is generally what you get,,and because you can weld about any material and any thickness with it,,but it is very slow.
Every process has its place,,and for a beginner,,nothing more simple than stick,take a class,or have someone show you a little to get started.
As far as somebody not wanting to pay somebody to change rods,,,yeah,that makes sense from a money point of view,,but consider this,,,its alot harder to repair a weld than do it right the first time,and some welds if they fail can lead to somebody dying.But yeah,get some mexicans who can only flat weld with a mig and pay them 7 bucks an hour and you might save a few bucks in the short term,,,thinking like that works on the production line but not on pressure piping and critical welds..thingy
The reason you don't see stick welds on much of anything anymores is because,they can't teach robots to do it,,,and mig is faster,but not any better,,fast is the key word,,they are not welding gas pipelines together,which is still mostly done with stick.
The reason you see a lotta tig in fab shops is one it makes a very good weld,what you see is generally what you get,,and because you can weld about any material and any thickness with it,,but it is very slow.
Every process has its place,,and for a beginner,,nothing more simple than stick,take a class,or have someone show you a little to get started.
As far as somebody not wanting to pay somebody to change rods,,,yeah,that makes sense from a money point of view,,but consider this,,,its alot harder to repair a weld than do it right the first time,and some welds if they fail can lead to somebody dying.But yeah,get some mexicans who can only flat weld with a mig and pay them 7 bucks an hour and you might save a few bucks in the short term,,,thinking like that works on the production line but not on pressure piping and critical welds..thingy
fattyfat1
Silver Member
Many years ago, I tried to help the guy across the street with his Greyhound bus conversion. He needed a gas tank for his generator that fit in a small area. Steel would rust, I couldn't weld aluminum, so I opted for S/S. Priced it, decided that wouldn't work either. Priced getting a sheet of 1/8", sheared, broke, and welded and that worked. Welding shop welded it with an aluminum mig, I filled it with water and it leaked badly. They rewelded it four times before I decided to try one of the welders at a friends shop. I ground it down and he welded it up with a mig. Leaked worse! Rewelded it 3 more times before I called Miller again, who had told me the mig would work...and then they said it was borderline with the 1/8". I started taking another class, learning TIG, and bought a used machine. Tig fixed it, by a rookie welder, with only one try.
Reason for the story, is their MIG welds looked a lot better than my rookie tig welding, but you just never know about a Mig, till it is too late.
David from jax[/QUOTE]
there is a big difference between a farmer with a welding machine in his shop for fixing broken implements, and a union pipe welder. with that in mind, with the thousands of piping systems we build per year, how many do you think leak? NONE, otherwise it's someones job. when you weld pipe, thats the thing, the customer doesn't like it to leak. you might want to rethink that line about "you just never know about mig till it's too late.", it's all about choosing the right tool for the job. i tig every day, and your decision to tig for your above mentioned project was spot on. you can't expect a flux cored 110 mig to hold liquid unless you are REALLY,REALLY good. if i had the choice between two machines for fixing that, i would have done the same. with 110 mig, structurally it will be very strong, but too much slag will become included into the weld. with the machine hooked up to gas, things will get better. for repairing leaks and cracks that need to hold fluid, there is no better choice than tig root/wire out. for the record, it would be very hard for anyone to weld wire w/ a 110 machine on your above project. with proper technique and some practice, you would be pleasantly surprised how great these little machines are.
Reason for the story, is their MIG welds looked a lot better than my rookie tig welding, but you just never know about a Mig, till it is too late.
David from jax[/QUOTE]
there is a big difference between a farmer with a welding machine in his shop for fixing broken implements, and a union pipe welder. with that in mind, with the thousands of piping systems we build per year, how many do you think leak? NONE, otherwise it's someones job. when you weld pipe, thats the thing, the customer doesn't like it to leak. you might want to rethink that line about "you just never know about mig till it's too late.", it's all about choosing the right tool for the job. i tig every day, and your decision to tig for your above mentioned project was spot on. you can't expect a flux cored 110 mig to hold liquid unless you are REALLY,REALLY good. if i had the choice between two machines for fixing that, i would have done the same. with 110 mig, structurally it will be very strong, but too much slag will become included into the weld. with the machine hooked up to gas, things will get better. for repairing leaks and cracks that need to hold fluid, there is no better choice than tig root/wire out. for the record, it would be very hard for anyone to weld wire w/ a 110 machine on your above project. with proper technique and some practice, you would be pleasantly surprised how great these little machines are.
fattyfat1
Silver Member
thingy said:
first off, i would like to say that i work in the PREMIER pipe fab shop on the west coast...........
i served a 10,000 hour apprenticeship, and have been a journeyman pipefitter and welder, & foreman for about 10 years.......
i am a SNT-TC-1A certified level 1 & 2 visual weld inspector.....
i spend my days inspecting and supervising the fabrication of pressure vessels and boiler code pipe, high pressure steam lines, and just about anything that has to do w/ pressure piping and critical welds.....
i am also assistant coordinator to local 26 jatc training dept. so i get to teach apprentices all about pipe welding, soldering, brazing.....
so tell me thingy, what is it you know about welding again? sounds like you were telling me about what i already do for 60+ hours a week......
i especially liked your racist and stereotypical comment about mexicans, that was a really nice touch!
I think we are talking back yard type welding here,short circuiting mig,welded by a beginner,,,not spray transfer process,or welds made by skilled welders,that the key here in my opinion.
I've welded pipe in postion with mig,[short circuiting process],,welded a good bit of it,,took several bend and tensile tests with it,,,,not saying you can't make a high quality weld with mig,,,just saying for a beginer it might not be the best choice,tig wouldn't be either,,,and mig will fool you even if you have welded with other processes before,first time I tried to weld with it years ago,grabbed gun which was already set up,,laid a few beads down,,man! looked good!,,easy,,to easy,,,set me up a tee type test,,ran a bead in it,turned it over and hit it with a hammer,broke like glass,weld wasn't even fused to plate on one side,,,,talked to a guy,,he said turn it up,,showed me how to move gun.But like I said,when you turn it up,it ain't easy to weld overhead anymores,,,thingy
I've welded pipe in postion with mig,[short circuiting process],,welded a good bit of it,,took several bend and tensile tests with it,,,,not saying you can't make a high quality weld with mig,,,just saying for a beginer it might not be the best choice,tig wouldn't be either,,,and mig will fool you even if you have welded with other processes before,first time I tried to weld with it years ago,grabbed gun which was already set up,,laid a few beads down,,man! looked good!,,easy,,to easy,,,set me up a tee type test,,ran a bead in it,turned it over and hit it with a hammer,broke like glass,weld wasn't even fused to plate on one side,,,,talked to a guy,,he said turn it up,,showed me how to move gun.But like I said,when you turn it up,it ain't easy to weld overhead anymores,,,thingy
Well mister fatty fat,,[we gotta work on your name],,,glad to hear I got a fellow inspector here!,,,I'm an asnt level III, in p.t. and m.t.,[certified by asnt],,I am also a c.w.i. of 23 years now,,I have two ***. degrees one in welding management and one in welding technology,,,went to level 1 and level two schools in r.t.[x-ray] and u.t...and etc,etc.
I started out welding gas pipelines,,been certified many times on pipe up and down with stick [and yes mig],never was a tig welder,,,
O.K.,,,now its your turn again,,,thingy
I started out welding gas pipelines,,been certified many times on pipe up and down with stick [and yes mig],never was a tig welder,,,
O.K.,,,now its your turn again,,,thingy
mars1952
Silver Member
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2007
- Messages
- 238
- Location
- Western North Carolina
- Tractor
- 1999 John Deere 4300 12/12 sync-reverse
Well since this is turning into a stick vs wire welding rant I guess I will throw in my humble opinion. TEACH, get as much MIG welder as you can afford. Get a gas setup right away if you can afford it. Forget about a stick welder they are just too hard to use. I have had a Dayton 230 AC/180 DC welder for about 25 years maybe 30. I have patched and fabricated many things with it and my welds never break even though they are ugly but it is just too hard to use. I don't weld often enough to stay in practice. Usually at the end of the project I will start laying down some decent welds.
So I was reworking my FEL bucket and I got fed up with my stick welder and went out and bought a Miller 251 with a 75/25% CO2 Argon gas setup. I figured that after 25 years it was time for an upgrade. I couldn't believe how easy it was to use. No more scratching, no more stuck welding rods, no more trapped pools of slag, no chipping and a 33 pound spool of wire seems to last forever. After 15 minutes of practice I was laying down the best welds of my life. I may never use my stick welder again and I have about 50 pounds of rods left. To illustrate how easy it is to learn to weld with a MIG I am going to attach 4 pictures of my daughters first welds with the Miller 251. She had never welded or done any metal work before and she only had about 20 minutes of lessons before she did these welds.
Marshall
P.S. About a day after I bought my MIG I went to the local scrap yard to look for welding project fodder and I found a whole pallet of welding wire. It had been scrapped by a local welding shop for some reason but it looked usable. I bought about 330 pounds for 18 cents a pound. All of the wire is for mild steel. The wire is .035 and .045. Some is bare wire and some is dual shield wire. Unfortunately there wasn't any flux core wire that I could run without gas.
When my kids clean out my shop after I die they will wonder why I bought so much welding wire because I don't think that I will ever use it all. I have only used about 10 pounds so far.
So I was reworking my FEL bucket and I got fed up with my stick welder and went out and bought a Miller 251 with a 75/25% CO2 Argon gas setup. I figured that after 25 years it was time for an upgrade. I couldn't believe how easy it was to use. No more scratching, no more stuck welding rods, no more trapped pools of slag, no chipping and a 33 pound spool of wire seems to last forever. After 15 minutes of practice I was laying down the best welds of my life. I may never use my stick welder again and I have about 50 pounds of rods left. To illustrate how easy it is to learn to weld with a MIG I am going to attach 4 pictures of my daughters first welds with the Miller 251. She had never welded or done any metal work before and she only had about 20 minutes of lessons before she did these welds.
Marshall
P.S. About a day after I bought my MIG I went to the local scrap yard to look for welding project fodder and I found a whole pallet of welding wire. It had been scrapped by a local welding shop for some reason but it looked usable. I bought about 330 pounds for 18 cents a pound. All of the wire is for mild steel. The wire is .035 and .045. Some is bare wire and some is dual shield wire. Unfortunately there wasn't any flux core wire that I could run without gas.
When my kids clean out my shop after I die they will wonder why I bought so much welding wire because I don't think that I will ever use it all. I have only used about 10 pounds so far.
Attachments
Hey,that ain't bad at all,and the welds don't look all that bad either!!
JUST KIDDING YOU!
you oughta have her make a tee,[fillit weld],and turn it over and hit it with a hammer,,if it just bends than you are doing a good job,,[or she is],,,
yeah,no argument stick is a higher skill level,,and no argument that you can't make a good weld with a mig.
Just think what that girl could do if she took a couple welding classes! thingy
JUST KIDDING YOU!
you oughta have her make a tee,[fillit weld],and turn it over and hit it with a hammer,,if it just bends than you are doing a good job,,[or she is],,,
yeah,no argument stick is a higher skill level,,and no argument that you can't make a good weld with a mig.
Just think what that girl could do if she took a couple welding classes! thingy
fattyfat1
Silver Member
I started out welding gas pipelines,,been certified many times on pipe up and down with stick [and yes mig],never was a tig welder,,,
O.K.,,,now its your turn again,,,thingy[/QUOTE]
you ought to know better as a cwi and level three that there is no such thing as a downhill test for the U.A. how did you get certified on that? that is the fastest way to get kicked out of test, because it is against the RULES. with all this experience here, tell me again why he should buy a stick machine. a good quality short arc machine with gas is good enough for quality root passes with spray/pulse over the top for hotpass and cap to produce x-ray quality pressure vessel code pipe, why can't he weld tractor parts w/it? it's easier to learn, the welds look 10 times better, it's structurally sound, and probably cheaper in the long run. spend a little more money now, feel like a rockstar cause your welds look good, and forego all the frustration of burning those "10,000 rods" to get a decent bead.
O.K.,,,now its your turn again,,,thingy[/QUOTE]
you ought to know better as a cwi and level three that there is no such thing as a downhill test for the U.A. how did you get certified on that? that is the fastest way to get kicked out of test, because it is against the RULES. with all this experience here, tell me again why he should buy a stick machine. a good quality short arc machine with gas is good enough for quality root passes with spray/pulse over the top for hotpass and cap to produce x-ray quality pressure vessel code pipe, why can't he weld tractor parts w/it? it's easier to learn, the welds look 10 times better, it's structurally sound, and probably cheaper in the long run. spend a little more money now, feel like a rockstar cause your welds look good, and forego all the frustration of burning those "10,000 rods" to get a decent bead.
Fatty fat,,who said anything about the U.A.? I was a pipeline welder not a pipefitter where I believe U.A. comes into play. We certified to a.p.i. 1104 and the gas companys specs,,the gas company is the one that certifys you,[in my case.] pipefitters are certified to section IX of asme code. When I go out on a job I certify pipefitters,,and not to U.A.,,but to section IX. Boilermakers also are certified to section IX,,their u.a. deal is called common arc,,how it works is they certify in a group,,companys representives wittness the test,[might be 50 different companies represented in the week or so they do this],,if they agree,they sign off,than that guy is certified with that company for a period of time. The U.A.[think thats what you talking about] is supposed to work the same way,but not as good I don't guess,,,anyways what I'm teaching you here is,,you certify to a code. And another lession is,,most gas line is welded downhill,with stick. I am not in a union,I am a contractor by the way. thingy
