What DO I need??

Dartagnan · May 19, 2004

Hello Everyone,

Thanks for the many great posts, very informative.
Have to give up reading for a while though, after two months of reading the Wife is starting to think I have an Internet Girlfriend. So this may be long winded, I apologize in advance.

Situation:
A) I have ten acres I just purchased that are relatively flat, except for a swale down to a branch, that as of yet I have been unable to really get into and see just how bad it is because of the old brush and deadfalls. I have had about two acres cleared by a dozer for home/yard but they stinted on the final grade/cleanup and there is def som boxblade work ahead. All the downed wood was piled at the side of the prop, and I will need to clean that up. There are still some roots in the "lawn" area, and a lot of pieces of broken tree laying around to be cleanded up. I also have about six acres in White pine, planted way too close(old christmas tree farm that never got harvested) that I will need to thin out and hopefully be able get the remaining trees to grow into future lumber size trees. There will also eventually be a barn to clean, perhaps an additional 12 acres when it becomes avail.

B) I also have 14 acres farther south that are def not flat, lot of deadfall needs cleaning up, hollers need hogging, the bottoms stay wet, and some of the slopes are 50%, my neighbor has hogged some of it with his JD (model unknown at this time, wasn't as informed then as now)but its not 4wd, and evryone thinks he is nuts. This piece will be developed sometime in the future, right now it is just eating my wallet. (No, it's not for sale)

The problem is budget, I just transfered here from Florida and have prettymuch tapped everything getting the two pieces of property and the house done.

Abilities: No Tractoring Experience but Very fast learner, can wrench anything so chinese didn't scare me at first, but upon some more reading I'm having some second thoughts....

The wife insists on new, Safety being top on her list, warranty second. Makes sense if you look at it in a budget sense, buy new and you know what your costs are, used, maybe you get away with original purchase price and then again (I've got an Ebay truck that proves this out) maybe you spend as much as original price on delayed maint and other repair.

SO, the questions,
How much HP do I really need, is hydro really worth the extra$, Knowing that in 5-7 years I'm going to be working some serious slopes do I worry about that with this purchase or just plan on buying something else when I get the first one paid off?

I think Iv'e covered the bases, sorry it was so longwinded, but most of the posts I've read have been too short to be answered on first go round...

TIA
Dart

SteveM · May 20, 2004

You have a lot of land to tackle, which normally gets people talking 30hp plus - keep in mind it is not the HP that matters, it is the overall size and weight of the tractor built around it. Problem I see is that you also have a wide variety of tasks to do, which may lead to a compromise. Right off the bat, if the mowing around the house could be eliminated (buy a lawn tractor cheaper than a MMM attachment) than you can focus on a larger tractor. For someone on a budget, I would suggest looking up a Mahindra or Branson/Century or Kioti. The Korean/Indians are really putting out increasing quality, but still at a discount to the traditional Japanese tractors. The Chinese machines are not there yet in terms of quality, and I wouldnt recommend it for such high acreage. As for hydro, I think it is the easiest route for a new user, and for many tasks, the safest and most efficient. I currently have both, and generally like the hydro better for most tasks.

Do a lot of reading, ask lots of questions and enjoy the search.

Boondox · May 20, 2004

Nice, informative post! You should get some great feedback on this one!

Up front, since you mentioned barn cleaning for a barn yet to be built, you have a chance to design a barn for ease of cleaning with the size tractor you end up getting, ie, stalls wide enough so you can get the bucket or blade in there, etc. Most of us don't get that opportunity.

I drive a Kubota, so my comments will be in terms of orange tractors. This in now way detracts from the others, it's just that in my area the dealer I wanted sold orange. I think you might get away with a B2910. A little small, but a great power to weight ratio and plenty of ooomph. Personally, I'd go with a low to middle L-series like the L3130 or 3430. And all that junk down the slope? Why risk a tractor down there when a logging winch can bring it up to you on solid ground? The winch would also help you selectively thin those crowded groves.

Or rent something with tracks for the heavy work, then get a smaller tractor to maintain it all..? Just some thoughts.

Pete

Bob_Skurka · May 20, 2004

When I started reading your post I was leaning toward a 30hp to 35hp Kubota or New Holland tractor becuase those are the brands that I own. But the more I read of your post the more it seems like you don't want a traditional tractor.

I would NOT buy a regular tractor given the slopes you have to deal with in the future. I am a big fan of getting the right tool for the right job, rather than getting a swiss army knife and expecting it to fix my car and do household repairs. I think you could take my Kubota B2910 and mow your 2 acre lawn, and I think you could use it for moving the deadfall, but I think it is not the right tool for either given some of your circumstances.

You actually seem like an ideal candidate for one of the larger (30hp) Power Trac tractors. I don't own one, so I'm not one of the evangalists for PT. But my observations are these: You have a lot of wood to move, and much of it will be moved in the woods where you have rolling property and/or steep grades. Working in the woods is typically tight work with limited abiltiy to navigate. Those factors would automatically get me to dismiss any of my equipment and lead me to PT in a big hurry.

PT turns tighter, is MUCH more stable, and makes very quick work of front loader work like logging. Add to that the fact that a PT will mow your lawn nicely. And nothing works inside of a barn as well as an articulated tractor (Steiner, Ventrac or Power Trac) but only the PT, in my mind, is suitable for ALL the other tasks you have.

Please check out the Power Trac forum and post your message there, maybe those guys will send you back here? Maybe they will agree with me and aim you at the proper size PT unit. In any case, it is worth the minimal effort that it takes to post this message under the PT section.

Moon · May 20, 2004

Hmmmm, from my limited tractoring experience, I think a Kubota 2910 or L3130 would do a dandy job for ya. Transporting a 2910 would be a little easier from my view, since it is a tad smaller. 700 - 1000 lbs if I remember right. Both are around 30 hp tractors w/ 25 pto. Either could easily handle the cleanup work you mention.
I had the same apprehension about hills when I was shopping for my tractor. At least you will have gotten a good bit of seat time before you have to tackle your hilly areas. 4WD will be a must. I'm constantly amazed at how my L3010 handles the hills. I"ve bush hogged places I never dreamed I'd get to before buying a tractor. I actually considered a DR type walk behind mower/bush hog because of my hills. Now that I have the tractor I'm sure glad I did not buy one of those. The tractor does better than a DR ever could..
I think HST is worth it, but really, you need to try em out. Sit in a few seats and try HST verses gear / shuttle shift. I've used both and think HST is easier for everything.
The only reason I mention Kubota is because that is what I bought. Any of the 30hp flavors would work for you IMHO.
Hope this helps,
Moon of Ohio

carluman · May 20, 2004

I'd recommend doing plenty of reading in each of the forums here. I had it down to Mahindra or Branson/Century and I'm going to pick up the new Century (well Zetor now) next weekend. The Mahindra 4500 4x4 had what needed but was just a bit larger in size (not HP) than what I wanted. Since money is tight for you at this time, I'd strongly recommend you drive a shuttle shift (general have 8F/8R or 12F/12R) to give it a try over the hydrostat. Lots of good tractors out there but not as many good dealers so be sure you get a good dealer even if you have to drive a ways.

Soundguy · May 20, 2004

24 acers.. Nice.

I wouldn't go under 30 hp. And get 4wd and power steering... might need a loader too. 30 to 40 hp would be a good idea.. 6' rough mower.. perhaps a 7' finish mower.. if you want finished lawn area.. ( I rought mow mine.. and let the horses do the rest... plus a little weed eating... Havn't finish mowed in a year. )

good luck

Soundguy

SnowRidge · May 20, 2004

Hi Neighbor, welcome to TBN.

You've gotten some good suggestions so far. If you are interested in Branson/Century or Power Tracs, you are welcome to look at mine. I'm about ten miles southwest of Loudon.

I also have some opinions (good and bad) regarding some of the dealers in this area, which I am willing to share privately.

PM (Private Message) me if there is anything I can do to help.

SnowRidge

BotaGuy · May 20, 2004

I read your post and the responses so far. I know a lot of people here think because you have more acres, you need more tractor. I don't think many of these people have driven the larger tractors in tight woods....

I owned a Kubota B7500 when I had 63 acres. Did my chores and stuff admireably.

In this case, you have a lot of potential uses, and the best advice is to get something as soon as possible, and if later you need something else, then trade it and get something else. There is no "ONE" magically tractor that will be perfect for you. And consider the fact that you may alter your plans, or use down the road. Prioritize your use for the next 12-24 months....then figure it will take you DOUBLE that time to get to it, and pick the tractor that suits those needs first. I cannot tell you what HP to get....instead you should go sit on some, and maybe rent one for an afternoon to get a feel for the abilities.

Good Luck

sweettractors · May 20, 2004

Welcome to TBN--We are just North of Nashville about 1 1/2 hour on Interstate 65 at Exit 65--You are welcome to come up and get behind the wheel of several Kioti tractors--Kinda get the feel of the machines--Ken Sweet
Sweet Farm Equipment LLC *Now 2 locations to serve our Customers better*

Dartagnan · May 21, 2004

Thanks for all the response folks,

I'm going to run over to the local NH dealer tomorrow morning, then down to the Kioti guy. I'm just afraid that I'm going to be in for some serious sticker shock after the quote I got on the farm pro.

Any suggestions as to what I should take care to notice as differences (good or bad) between these two brands?

How do I recognize a "good" dealer, I mean you can't (shouldn't anyway) shoot the whole dealership just because the salesman you get happens to be "bubba the used car guy". What are the key things to look for, When I'm looking for a car, I always check the shop...is it clean, what's in the back lot...and frankly I'm not impressed with multi million dollar show rooms...somebody paid for that.

Any hints or personal experience would be appreciated.

TIA
Dart

frank_f15 · May 21, 2004

i would think something in the 30 to35 hp range would do u, you say u have another 14 acres farther south? how much farther and remember the bigger the tractor the bigger the rig to haul it.

Bob_Skurka · May 21, 2004

Dart, go talk to the parts guy and ask him how long it normally takes to get simple things like oil filters, belts, hoses. Hopefully the answer is that those are all in stock. Generally try to get a feel for their shop.

Also, I think you should do yourself a HUGE favor and ONLY consider a tractor that has a hydrostatic transmission. This is a big safety issue that you need to consider. A guy who grew up on a gear tractor will tell you a gear machine will do everything a HST machine will do, but as a city boy who moved to the country a decade ago, and who likes to restore gear tractors but who only uses modern tractors, let me just say that on hills you really really want a HST transmission. The last thing you want to do is try to use your right hand to manipulate your FEL with a log on it while trying to find low reverse while looking backwards so you don't drive off the edge of anything as your left hand turns the steering wheel. I almost layed one of my tractors on its side on smooth flat asphalt while backing and turning, trust me when I say it is easier to tip on uneven ground.

As for prices between a NH and a Jinma. You need to compare features on an apples to apples basis, not tractors with similar HP engines. HST transmissions automatically add about $1000. Does the 3pt have position control? Ag tires or R4's? (you can mow the lawn with R4's or you can tear up the lawn with Ag tires). Lots of little things to look at.

And I still think you should strongly consider a PT.

Henro · May 21, 2004

let me just say that on hills you really really want a HST transmission.

That is the way I feel too. I am really glad I have an HST when I am threading between trees on my back hill, especially with the brush hog on back, but really all the time...

What I like best is that there is no need to clutch, I can stop and reverse direction, go as slow as I like, and always have the connection between the engine and the ground...

I keep telling myself this is a safety advantage. But having never owned a gear tractor I don't know for sure. But it sure FEELS LIKE it is... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

KNotMe · May 22, 2004

The last thing you want to do is try to use your right hand to manipulate your FEL with a log on it while trying to find low reverse while looking backwards so you don't drive off the edge of anything as your left hand turns the steering wheel 

 I think you have clearly explained why a tractor with HST is BETTER than one with a geared transmission. We only have a pair of hands, and for good control of steering BOTH hands are expected to be on the steering while moving. A compromise is a machine that frees up one hand.

Bob_Skurka · May 22, 2004

I think it is reasonable to compramise on a lot of things, but safety is not one of them.

Based on the original post we have someone new to tractors with terrain that would challenge an experienced tractor user. A tractor with a hyrdrostactic transmission should be factored into the budget even if many other options need to be bypassed because of budget constraints. I think given his terrain, the second most important factor would be stability which favors a w-i-d-e machine with a l_o_w center of gravity.

Dartagnan · May 23, 2004

Again, Thanks for the response,

Regarding the PT models, I might be interested in them when I start improving the Cosby property, but right now the Proprietary<sp>? impliments seem just a little too costly for my budget. And the idea ofhaving to wait on shipping for some thing I might need today instead of just going to the nearest co-op, puts me off a little bit. Otherwise they look like an incredible machine.

Regarding HST/Shuttle/Gear.
Still researching this, I agree that the idea of one foot ops instead of two feet+ hand makes a lot of sense. What I'm worried about is repair costs after warranty Expires, Just based on engineering of the hydro units there are pieces that are going to wear out and need replacing, with a shuttle it's limited to the actual clutch (barring bad maint/abuse). I've been inside auto trannys before, they're heavy, complicated, and expensive to repair, I expect that hydro's are even worse.
I've not made the decision on this matter yet tho, but with budget being what it is, I have to take the extra HP I can purchase w/o hydro into account, especially knowing that it's going to be at least 5 years before I really start using it on the hilly stuff.

That said, I drove a friends TC45D last night. Awesome piece of equip. I found the shuttle very easy to op, the f/r shift is located just like a turn signal on your car and given a few hours of practice I think it would become second nature to shift. He has the Woods loader verses NH, is there really $1000 worth of improved visability with the curved arms?

I did stop by a NH dealer yesterday, not too impressed with the pricing he gave me, real close to list from what I've seen posted here, but he was extremly helpful, gave me plenty of time(president of the company) and the place was hopping. Where as the Kubota guy came in pretty close to the "Good" price on that web site listed here somewhere, but this place had 0 customers while I was there, does that mean ppl don't need Kubota parts or that they would rather shop elswhere?? Hmmmm....

Still attacking the curve...
Dart

Bob_Skurka · May 23, 2004

Regarding the PT models, I might be interested in them when I start improving the Cosby property, but right now the Proprietary<sp>? impliments seem just a little too costly for my budget. And the idea ofhaving to wait on shipping for some thing I might need today instead of just going to the nearest co-op, puts me off a little bit. Otherwise they look like an incredible machine.


I think if you buy a traditional tractor then you will lock yourself into that style machine and simply because you will have purchased implements that won't work with the PT in the future. That said, and since you say they look like an incredible machine. I think you should try to find out more about them before making the decision for any particular brand. Especially because if you buy a good tractor now, you won't need to replace it in 5 or 10 or even 15+ years. So when you begin to improve the "Cosby" property you'd still have a good 10+ years worth of life in the machine (and probably a lot more).

Regarding the cost of the PT implements, I would agree that they are more expensive than any of the bargain 3pt brands, but they are very price competitive to the better brands of 3pt equipment and they sure seem to be very heavily built so the price is actually very competitive for the quality you seem to get.

 Regarding HST/Shuttle/Gear.
Still researching this, I agree that the idea of one foot ops instead of two feet+ hand makes a lot of sense. What I'm worried about is repair costs after warranty Expires, Just based on engineering of the hydro units there are pieces that are going to wear out and need replacing For what it is worth, I have never had any repairs to any of my HST transmissions. I have had to repair transmissions on gear machines. And for the safety factor I'd opt for the HST every day every time. Especially with the hills.

I really think you need to look at the long term use of the machine and buy the tractor that will be the best choice for the long haul. You might not need some of the benefits of a PT today, but you might find them a life saver in the future. And if you are using a tractor in the woods, it is tough to beat an articulated unit.

As for your comment about buying the most HP your dollars will allow, I would probably disagree. Regardless of what brand you decide to buy, you should find one thing holds true. A small tractor will do everything a big tractor will do, it will just take a bit more time to do it. And since you also need to mow the lawn (and if I recall correctly from your 1st post we are not talking about a field, we are talking about a couple acres), please realize that the bigger tractor will likely make that task last longer because they are harder to turn an harder to operate in tight spaces.

A lot of people recommend bigger is better. I tend to disagree and recommend finding out what you actually do and then finding the best overall machine for those tasks.

Chechnya · May 23, 2004

I did a little research and found http://www.chiltontractor.com/ in Wartburg, Tn. They carry New Holland and Long. Check out the TC33D and TC35D

Henro · May 23, 2004

I've been inside auto trannys before, they're heavy, complicated, and expensive to repair, I expect that hydro's are even worse. 

I'm not sure...but someone here posted something that caused me to believe that the HST is actually quite simple. Sorry I forget who posted this, but the point that was made was that the HST is so simple [it's not an automoble transmission tractor style] that it should actually cost less than gear transmissions, not more. Us buyers are just willing to pay more for HST so the sellers charge more...so the poster said anyway.

There have been tons of posts regarding gear vs HST durability. In the end it comes down to experience. Gear transmissions have been around for a hundred years probably. You can find an really old gear tractor still working perfectly. HSTs have not been around more than maybe 30 years in common use. So you can't find a 100 year old HST operating perfectly. They don't exist.

My take on the reliability issue is that it is probably a wash with both being very reliable and an occasional lemon showing up now and then...