what is non-detergent oil

[Roto]

In my post (hydrostatic drive worn out) a few people mentioned non-detergent oil instead of regular sae30 weight oil in my hydostatic transmission. I was just wondering what the difference is between non-detergent and regular sae30 oil.

Mike

 

[rdbrumfield]

Using non detergent oil for a time will tend to build up solids in the system that spaces that are worn and by changing to detergent and cleaning up things it creates clearances that are undesireable. I won't swear on the bible on this, but that is what I have heard from oldtimers.

 

[gsxr1100]

Non-detergent oils where delevloped around 1940 before adds where discovered/made. They are now considered 'obsolete' and should only be considered for use in 'non-combustion' type applications such as a small hobby reciprocating air compressor for example. They are SA and SB symbol I think.

The main difference is price and what you get. If you like an oil that never cleans, buy it.

 

[nobull1]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Non-detergent oils where delevloped around 1940 before adds where discovered/made. They are now considered 'obsolete' and should only be considered for use in 'non-combustion' type applications such as a small hobby reciprocating air compressor for example. They are SA and SB symbol I think.

The main difference is price and what you get. If you like an oil that never cleans, buy it.
)</font>

My understanding was non detergent oils should be used in combustion engines that have no oil filters. By using non detergent all of the crud goes to the bottom and is removed when the oil is changed. When a detergent oil is used the particles are kept in suspension and circulated around the motor. This is a good thing if you have a in line filter but causes premature wear when there is none. Don't know if this is true, but is what I have been told.Comments?

 

[BRIGUY]

The only place I have seen N-D oils called out were compressors and pumps. No combustion gasses to worry about, and concern about foaming.

 

[Bird]

All reasonable answers, I think. Not being a petroleum engineer, I don't really know or understand everything about the differences, but in my memory and experience, everyone had to change to detergent oils when cars started using hydraulic valve lifters instead of solid lifters for one example. If you ran non-detergent oil, you'd soon have stuck lifters. And yes, early cars did not have oil filters and lots of crud settled in different places in the engines. I used to have one customer who wanted 30W non-detergent oil in his car at each oil change, but he also wanted a pint of Marvel Mystery Oil added at each oil change, so he was, in effect, using a high detergent oil, and his old Ford, with many miles on it, looked and ran like new.

There are many variations, but two basic designs of air impact wrenches; one that is lubricated with grease in the impact mechanism (front end) and one that is lubricated with motor oil (either 20W or 30W) and those with the oil in them recommend a non-detergent oil, so I used quite a bit of 30W non-detergent oil. And I still don't really know why they recommended non-detergent or what would happen if you used detergent oil instead.

 

[willfick]

For some old tractors (my '46 model Farmall, for instance) non-detergent was all there was in the beginning. A lot of people recommend against switching over to detergent except when the engine is being rebuilt. The idea is that detergent oil can cause accumulated crud lumps to break loose and clog oil passages, stopping oil flow to inner worknings and hidden mechanisms. Mine was rebuilt just before I got it, and I've taken that as permission to use high detergent 30wt. Good thing; its hydraulics require non-detergent because of foaming (which is probably why you've been recommended non-d) and 30wt because regular hydraulic oil is too thin for its old pump(are people telling you 30wt because you need something thicker?) and quality 30wt non-d is hard to find.
Wm

 

[Egon]

Bird:

Perhaps non - detergent oil is recomended as it will not have any heavy metals added??? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Egon /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[_RaT_]

My old VW's called for detergents but then they did have a filter of sorts. It was a screen about twice as fine as a patio screen, does that count as filter or just a chunk catcher. For some reason right up into the 70's or so it was common practice to use non-detergent oil for your first use in a brand new or rebuilt engine. I remember my Dad buying Valvoline one time. The round cans always had red tops but one day he came home with a case with blue tops. The blue tops were non-detergent SAE 30 or 20.

 

[Roto]

Well its an old 1969 international hydrostatic drive and the hytran oil that has been used in it since day one is like 15-20 weight i guess and the hydro is warn out to the point when it gets hot it dont want to go very good. i know the hydro is on its way out and dont want to pay 3 grand to fix it yet or ever so i want to get a couple years out of it and was hoping thicker oil may help and if you find the post about (hydro warn out heavy oil yes or no) you can read what they say. I still would like more info before i put 15 gallons of non-detergent in there about what the oil is all about and why non deterg.

mike

 

[banjobj]

Are you saying that switching over from non detergent to detergent will do no harm? The reason I ask is my 1955 Farmall 100 has always used non detergent. I just bought it and am looking for advice. Thank you for any comments or advice you may give me. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Junkman]

Non detergent oils had a habit of developing sludge in the engine and detergent oils will break down that sludge and keep it in suspension until it is drained out. There are some people that believe that the sludge is good since it keeps worn engines from making noise and fills some of the critical gaps that shouldn't be there except for wear in the engine. If the engine was well maintained, then it will still be tight internally and a detergent oil will do no harm. If it is tired, then using detergent oil will hasten the day that it will need to be rebuilt. Non detergent oils come in only straight weights and detergent oils come in multi weights. This is another factor to consider. Can your engine handle a multi weigh oil? For the most part, any automobile engine built after about 1960 used multi weigh oils. Prior to that, it was dependent on the manufacturers specifications.

 

[nobull1]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( . For some reason right up into the 70's or so it was common practice to use non-detergent oil for your first use in a brand new or rebuilt engine. )</font>

I can say I honestly don't know the answer. It does seem like the reason might have been to use non detergent oil was to let the initial contaminants settle to the bottom. Maybe the refinement of the oil filters and oils made detergent oils a better way to remove contaminants. Wouldn't be the first time we did things we thought made sense that turned out wrong. Ask your parents how much DDT they put on the family vegetables before they harvested for the family,great bug killer /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[Soundguy]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( type applications such as a small hobby reciprocating air compressor )</font>

All the big 60 gallon air compressors at TSC, lowes, and HD are using nd oil as pump oil.. would that still be 'hobby' to you?

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( should only be considered for use in 'non-combustion' type applications )</font>

Lotsa non-filtered lawnmower engines use it too.

Soundguy

 

[gsxr1100]

quote]All the big 60 gallon air compressors at TSC, lowes, and HD are using nd oil as pump oil.. would that still be 'hobby' to you? )</font>

Size has nothing to do with it in this application. Yes they are still in the league to me. Everything is a hobby in general. They all do the same thing here. So are big and some are small.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Lotsa non-filtered lawnmower engines use it too. )</font>

and….I use a detergent additive based oil in every engine I use, from a gas trimmer, to a power washer etc etc. No problems to date. Just drain the old oil out and re-fill for a nice clean oil while it sits for winter.

I would personally like the detergent oil in my engine but that is me.

I find myself personally making less and less posts on anything oil related since most times it comes down issues not even oil related or opinion based. Example, I can post oil tests till I am blue in the fact but it comes down to what the end user wants. So I hope someone else on TBN can take over all the debates if they are still open threads of them.

So in this case, follow the book.

 

[Egon]

I have always been under the impression air compressors used a much different crankcase oil to avoid an explosive atmosphere if some got past the rings and into the compressed air.

Egon

 

[slowrev]

Well its an old 1969 international hydrostatic drive and the hytran oil that has been used in it since day one is like 15-20 weight i guess and the hydro is warn out to the point when it gets hot it dont want to go very good. i know the hydro is on its way out and dont want to pay 3 grand to fix it yet or ever so i want to get a couple years out of it and was hoping thicker oil may help and if you find the post about (hydro warn out heavy oil yes or no) you can read what they say. I still would like more info before i put 15 gallons of non-detergent in there about what the oil is all about and why non deterg.
//
Roto,
I think the main reason for non detergent in that application is the non foaming asopect of non detergent oil.
Hydros are nice but expensive when they break.
Ben

 

[_RaT_]

They are all expensive when they break! I can show you the bill for our NH 2120 12X12.

 

[slowrev]

Yep they are all expensive when they break, but gear types are simpler and cheaper to fix.

 

[_RaT_]

When and if my hydrostat breaks I'll let you know. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif