what on earth does electricity cost near you?

[mjonesnh]

I put two mini splits in my new house and am quite disappointed in their heating ability. I can leave them on set at 70 and it seldom gets above the low 60's in the energy efficient house, R26 walls, R40 8' ceilings. About 1500 sq ft. I am considering going with a conventional gas furnace with a wood burning ability add on. My mini splits are 18K and 12 K in size. They seem to do ok for cooling.

Don't have mini splits but do have 2.5-ton heat pump which should be close to your 2 units combined , 1400 sq. house. Zero problems keeping house warm or cool, 74 in summer, 72 in winter. Aux. strips seldom kick in unless temps below 15 or less.

 

[Carl_NH]

I put two mini splits in my new house and am quite disappointed in their heating ability. I can leave them on set at 70 and it seldom gets above the low 60's in the energy efficient house, R26 walls, R40 8' ceilings. About 1500 sq ft. I am considering going with a conventional gas furnace with a wood burning ability add on. My mini splits are 18K and 12 K in size. They seem to do ok for cooling.

I have three mini splits all single head Mitsubishi High SEER (30 for the 9K and 26 for the 12K) 2 9K and 1 12 K, and the 1 9K heats my office with cathedral ceilings and 800SF to 65* unless its below 5* outside then it struggles. R30 Ceiling and R21 walls built in 1999.

Ours are mostly for supplemental heat in the winter, and primary cooling/conditioning in the summer.

I did install a 4th Mini Split a 9K Tosot ($630 all in) in our Summer house and it doesn't heat well at all or efficiently - but we bought it for cooling.

So it depends on the unit efficiency, how they are set up - single head vs ducted, duct insulation and outdoor delta temp you are trying to change.

They like to run all the time, set it and let it run with maybe a 4* delta between night/day temps. They don't do well pushing a lot of heat fast - slow and steady wins with mini splits.

 

[mark in portugal]

Heat pump efficiency is affected by outdoor temperature; they work very well in mild temperatures but struggle when it gets really cold.
Even in areas with very low temperatures, they can be cost effective, even though you have to install a backup heat source for deep cold periods.

I resisted buying one for a long time due to the lies of salespeople; it seems that the engineering has now caught up.
I bought one but haven't installed it yet.

 

[dfkrug]

Heat pump efficiency is affected by outdoor temperature; they work very well in mild temperatures but struggle when it gets really cold.

In much of the American desert, heat-pump systems have been standard in new construction for more than 50 years. My first house (1980) in Mesa, AZ had such a system, with the HVAC unit on the roof. Cooling is the primary design factor here, as one can imagine, with so many days at over 110F. Heating performance was not very good, but winter temps rarely went below 40F. At least the electricity cost was not too bad.

Now here in California, the govt is trying to get all new houses to be all-electric, including heat-pump water heaters and HVAC, plus electric ranges. Terrible idea, IMO, for those of us rural dwellers who experience more power outages, and don't want huge whole-house backup systems (battery or generator). Are they doing that in Portugal & Spain where climate is similar?

 

[ponytug]

I would suggest that European and US grids are different in some big ways, but especially Portugal and Spain that aren't well connected to other grids (interties) resulting in some own goals recently.

If you look a bit farther north in the UK, and the Nordic countries, I think that you will find quite a bit of backup heating available, either through natural gas, or solid fuels like wool, or coke. I would comment that their grid uptime percentages tend to be better than many rural places in the US, which would decrease the necessity of substantial backup energy resources. Their grids are generally more expensive, and designed for more resiliency, plus many rural locations have much higher population densities than are common here, so I don't think that the grid systems line up 1:1 for apples to apples comparisons. But that's just my view.

All the best,

Peter

 

[mark in portugal]

In much of the American desert, heat-pump systems have been standard in new construction for more than 50 years. My first house (1980) in Mesa, AZ had such a system, with the HVAC unit on the roof. Cooling is the primary design factor here, as one can imagine, with so many days at over 110F. Heating performance was not very good, but winter temps rarely went below 40F. At least the electricity cost was not too bad.

Now here in California, the govt is trying to get all new houses to be all-electric, including heat-pump water heaters and HVAC, plus electric ranges. Terrible idea, IMO, for those of us rural dwellers who experience more power outages, and don't want huge whole-house backup systems (battery or generator). Are they doing that in Portugal & Spain where climate is similar?

Yes.
There was a big tax break for new heating / cooling, and solar electrical systems. Most apartments are using resistance electric or older reverse cycle AC units.

Before the tax break ended in June 2025, I bought a heatpump (with buffer and big DHW tank) for my heat and hot water, and 16kw of solar panels for my roof.

I don't need 16kw; the hope is to get 5kw on a winter morning. It's kind of fun to think that for half the year, at midday I could use my 70A plasma cutter or my arc welder fully on solar power.

With solar panels so cheap now, heating works out very well if one can buffer the heat overnight, which is quite doable.

We put underfloor heating loops in when we renovated the house 15 years ago. the concrete slab is many tons, so after it's been heated up the heat source can be off for a long time. We heat with fuel now, and it already works that way.

I hope to have the heatpump and DHW setup soon, and connect the heating loops before next winter (there are some challenges with that). I haven't bought the inverter or battery yet.
It will be 3-phase, 380V.

I need to replace my roof structure, the old wood is full of bugs and it's pretty bad. I'm trying to get a contractor for that. I'll get the panels up at the same time.

 

[MF243RedTop]

About .16 a kilowatt now....
About .15 a year ago..

 

[ultrarunner]

When I was involved with some new single family residential builds in Austria the amount of thought that went into efficiency and redundancy was almost extreme.

Part was building for generations and the other was the idea multiple sources are essential.

Each had grid electric and then either propane or oil or both… some had a large buffer for radiant heat with would have solar and several of the above.

Building code required each construction include a chimney suitable for wood stove to cook and heat… those with wood often had a hot water loop to add to the radiant…

Never saw a single home that was all electric…

40 cents is ballpark for residential kWh in Austria.

 

[ponytug]

When I was involved with some new single family residential builds in Austria the amount of thought that went into efficiency and redundancy was almost extreme.

Part was building for generations and the other was the idea multiple sources are essential.

Each had grid electric and then either propane or oil or both… some had a large buffer for radiant heat with would have solar and several of the above.

Building code required each construction include a chimney suitable for wood stove to cook and heat… those with wood often had a hot water loop to add to the radiant…

Never saw a single home that was all electric…

I'd never seen folks build a house one room at a time over many years. I've had friends who built a one room log cabin, and then built a larger home, but the fairly common Austrian aversion to mortgages, and their willingness to start small does stand out to me globally. I'd also point out that the winter smog in many parts of Austria is off the charts with all of the slow (and incomplete) burning of tiles stoves, and slow combustion stoves, but wood is free for many of them, and it's their lungs.

All the best,

Peter

 

[Carl_NH]

I think Ultra's point wasn't building one room at a time, but having multiple sources of heat, in an efficient insulated structure so any source can be used.

We have three, Oil, FHW primary, Mini Splits secondary (power by solar most of the time) then a central chimney FP with wood, that once that mass heats up (radiant) will keep the house warm for hours.

 

[ultrarunner]

I'd never seen folks build a house one room at a time over many years. I've had friends who built a one room log cabin, and then built a larger home, but the fairly common Austrian aversion to mortgages, and their willingness to start small does stand out to me globally. I'd also point out that the winter smog in many parts of Austria is off the charts with all of the slow (and incomplete) burning of tiles stoves, and slow combustion stoves, but wood is free for many of them, and it's their lungs.

All the best,

Peter

Often a shell will be built with a basic kitchen and bath… over the years the floors will get built out as the family expands and finances allow…

The wood chimney can be totally sealed but the idea is should history repeat where oil or gas is no longer available.

With wood… cooking and heat is possible.

The regulations are very strict… smoke is fineable and many tile ovens are in use all winter… one load in the evening maintains and when very cold also a morning load…

The thermal mass can throw off warmth for 24 hours…

Absolutely no trash burning… wood must be clean and seasoned hardwood… typically 2 years… chimney annually serviced and inspected…

Electricity has never been inexpensive and time of use metering a thing for decades…

I stayed in modern homes with almost no electricity needed other than lights and electronics…

Here is a picture of a tile stove I had built and a winter outside picture…

The stove is the only source of heat and it works well as long as someone is there to keep the home fire going.

 

[kenmbz]

I love those old fancy wood heaters you see like above in europe.

In asia, you see many houses built from cement or block where they build the base and then add on rooms/floors over time as the family gets larger. Seeing rebar sticking out of the top looks strange.

In MA most of the houses start with basic kitchen/bedroom and utility room.
They added the living room and more bedrooms later.
In my uncles house they added a whole second "house" with a bedroom, dining room and sitting room and later added a second floor.
The second floor had a small pot belly stove, which over time caused the whole "newer" house to settle in the middle. Took a lot of work to get the "newer" section back to level.
The older section was done 1860s the newer section around 1900.
We verified the older section date by the newspapers they used as insulation.....

 

[3930dave]

The problems in Spain and Portugal, not that long ago....

2025 Iberian Peninsula blackout - Wikipedia

Rgds, D.

 

[ultrarunner]

Dads cousin was master ceramic tile oven maker… no two alike and some works of art…

Properly used they are ultra low emission and air tight…

These old craftsman can’t believe the common open face fireplaces that were once so common in America.

I have seen the massive amount of wood a open fireplace consumes compared to a airtight.

The beauty of electricity is the ability to accomplish just about any task but it comes at a price which either is favorable or not.

We celebrate diversity in America except when it come to power… with forces now pushing electricity over everything else.

My cousins farm is next to an ancient blacksmith shop… with deeded water rights channeled to a flume to drive a water wheel which powers overhead shafts to belt driven hammers, drill presses, etc plus a DC generator that has provided electric heating and power to home and shop… really amazing how things were done150 years ago…

 

[Doofy]

Currently $.3979 per KWH. This changes monthly depending upon Hydro output and the cost of diesel. Happy Happy Joy Joy!