Which oil is king?

   / Which oil is king? #51  
Re: Which oil is king? -ALL BRAND NAMES!

I'm not a Petroleum Engineer, but it seems that the quality of engine oil has conveniently surpassed the technology that filters out the harmful particulates from within it. When was the last time you read scientific tests conducted on automotive oil and air filters? Does any manufacture guarantee that their air or oil filter, filters down to X microns? My 'First Need' camping water filter states that it filters down to .1 microns. There are companies out there that manufacture expensive external oil filtering setups. Who has paid for such and did it work? I'm still trying to find out if the K&N filters on our vehicles perform as claimed. Imagine the filter on a kidney dialysis machine - it's probably not a Fram. My point is that not enough effort has been put into trying to improve or standardize internal combustion air and oil filters. I wonder why?
 
   / Which oil is king? #52  
Re: Which oil is king? -ALL BRAND NAMES!

I was reading your post and saw this 5030----

"I have never heard of anyone that uses synthetic oil in their Class 8 Diesel. Most owners either use Shell Rotella T with XLA in the 15-40 grade, or Mobil Delvac 1200 15-40.
Would you or for that matter anyone else take a chance on destroying an engine in a $120,000 truck by using a synthetic oil? I am sure there would be a warranty issue with the engine manufacturer if you were to use a synthetic."

This is not an arguement, since you sound like you know what you speak off I had three questions---

1) How does a chemically manufactured synthetic oil Like Mobil Delvac 1, Mobils premium diesel product or Shells Rotella Synthetic, Shells premium diesel product damage diesel engines when compared to conventional products in the same line --Mobil or Shell Delvac 1300 or Rottella??

2) What is "XLA", is it an additive?

3) Why would there be a warranty issue with Mobil Delvac 1 or Shell Rottella Synthetic? You actually know of diesel engine operators whose warranties are voided by using premium lubricants?

Just curious as to the facts behind these statments. Seeking knowledge imput.

Some of the "black" in oil is suspended particles, soot, blowby products and all that, some of it, in fact a test that I cannot find right now but am looking madly for it found that approximately 70% of the particles in the oil that made it "black" are the result of carbonization of the oil itself when exposed to blowby or other extreme heat. This is why synthetics remain more "clear" longer --they do carbonize/(oxidize) until much higher temps---imagine millions of tiny charcoal briquettes circulating in your oil--grinding at your 120,000 dollar diesel engine or your 40,000 dollar Lexus or your favorite color of tractor /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Yeah, all oil turns black with "dirt" sludge and soot etc but not all oils carbonize at temps expected in the combustion process. This is easy to verify by observation, take any small engine, flush it out and install a true syn like Amsoil or Mobil 1 and run it for several hours, Measure the clarity of the removed oil. Run the same engine with the worst of the worst, Quaker State's whatever their cheapest oil is called now and see it turn black before your eyes--same engine, same time, same operating conditions, same blowby and soot production. Now, this is an extreme example to acentuate the observational difference but the same thing happens with premium conventional dino oil products, just much more slowly. Of course there is actually little or no carbonization/oxidation with true synthetics like Mobil 1, Redline, Amsoil and a few others. All premium conventional oils will oxidize at temps found in normal operation but many of these premium conventional oils are nonetheless reasonably stable due to their use of manufactured components and additives packages. J
 
   / Which oil is king? #53  
Re: Which oil is king? -ALL BRAND NAMES!

Yes they do have specs they have to meet to pass oem requirements like 5 micron has to be 98.5% on an air filter I have seen ford tech papers for svo ford as to k+n specs etc.. they do rate those many manufactures do for oem outsourcing mainly...

Also on the notion that 70% of the black in oil in conventional oil is the oil itself and that synthetic's do not turn black instantly is simply not conclusive i've always seen simular results. synthetic oils tend not to suspend particles and in my opinion these days they have balanced the additives to be effective in suspending solids.

I think this threads about tuckered out. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
   / Which oil is king? #54  
Re: Which oil is king? -ALL BRAND NAMES!

I have never heard of a proffessional mechanic recommending a K&N filter. As a matter of fact, most of the advice I've read on proffessional sites recommends avoiding them. I've also read that if they find a K&N on your Dodge Cummins it will void your warranty. I haven't used one, it looks to me like cleaning it would be a hit or miss proposition.
 
   / Which oil is king? #55  
Re: Which oil is king? -ALL BRAND NAMES!

I found this info on the internet.. has some interesting information on oil.

http://home.earthlink.net/~cjcarri/oilinfo/oilinfo.htm

Here's the last paragraph...

"To me it contains at least three surprises: some synthetic oils wear your engine out faster than conventional ones, older conventional oils protect your engine better than newer ones, and the best oil to use for an old car is oil designed for diesel trucks! "
 
   / Which oil is king? #56  
Re: Which oil is king? -ALL BRAND NAMES!

K+N is completely ok to use in all automotive/diesel apps. they are exclusively used by SVO ford and is endorsed by ford. Also GM and others.

You have to remember they use them on the apache helocopters and many industrial applications use a simular system even kohler and briggs have a simular system for industrial purposes.

No One can void your warranty if i go and put a k+n a turbo or you put nitromethane in the engine doesn't matter unless your resulting actions doesn't lead to failure there warranty obligations are still in full effect.

"If your results disagree with popular theory, Invent a new theory and believe the results"
 
   / Which oil is king? #57  
Re: Which oil is king? -ALL BRAND NAMES!

No One can void your warranty if i go and put a k+n a turbo or you put nitromethane in the engine doesn't matter unless your resulting actions doesn't lead to failure there warranty obligations are still in full effect.


Have to completely disagree with you here Shady. I know a number of guys who have had their warranties voided by the mfg. In every owners manual it specifically states that any aftermarket additions to the vehicle can void your warranty. I personally had my warranty voided for gauges, an aftermarket fuel filtration system, and a transmission cooler. You can say all you want about the Moss/Magnuson Act etc. but all the dealer, mfg., etc. has to is put a couple little words in the computer and you are voided. Sure you can get a lawyer, fight it, etc. but the mfg. is backed by the owners manual.
 
   / Which oil is king? #58  
Re: Which oil is king? -ALL BRAND NAMES!

TresCrows:

Answer to question 1:

Detroit Diesel, hereinafter referred to as DDEC, recommends 1200 Delvac 15-40 to all their purchasers. In fact, there is a label stating just that on the valve cover. I have a '98 Western Star with a 3406-E model 550 hp. Caterpillar recommends Shell Roptella T. Shell has reformulated their Rotella T and added various additives that will extend the service life of the oil in extreme applications, hence "XLA" (Answer to question 2). If a DDEC or Cat engine has a failure due to lube oil breakdown, I would imagine that there were would be a warranty problem. A couple of thing that the non-trucking public isn't aware of is 1. That the change interval for lube oil in class 8 diesels is normally 12,000miles. because of the extreme operating temperatures produced by commercial diesels ( the temperature of piston crowns can exceed 1,000 degrees) and the fact that class 8 diesels have provisions for oiling of the underside of the piston crowns subjects the oil to high temperature. 2. The emmission standards set forth by the Federal Government has caused DDEC and cat to redisign their engines to meet those standards. The redesign has resulted in increased internal temperature also. That high temperature along with extended drain intervals cause oxidation in the lube oil and a loss of the additive package.

Delvac and Rotella are not true petroleum based oils. They are hybrids. Their base stocks are naturally produced oils but they have synthetic oils added to them to increase their resistance to breakdown. The also have additive packages to increase their lubricity and antifoaming along with other additives to prolong their operating life.

As far as damage to a diesel engine. Like I stated before, if lubrication was an issue on a warranty matter, I have a feeling that the engine manufacturer would not warrant the engine. I don't think it would matter what oil you'd used.

I always use the recommended oil as to API grade or brand if specified. All engine manufacturers do exhaustive testing to determine what grad or API certification is best for their engine. In the case of DDEC, their recommendation of a specific brand for their engines, I would be reasonably sure that that recommendation also came from exhaustive testing. Even though I have a Caterpillar engine, I am aware that DDEC is very concerned about quality and the longevity of their engines.

As far as lubrication failure in a Class 8 engine, In 32 years of trucking, I have never seen an engine failure due directly to the failure of lube oil. I have seen engines destroyed by oil failure due to dilution from antifreeze or diesel fuel. Cat's are know for dropping the injector cups which allow diesel fuel to mix with the oil and older Cats had a habit of perforating the head gasket on number 6 which allowed antifreeze to mix with the oil, but direct failure due to lube oil, I've never seen one.

I am not saying that Amsoil or any other high priced synthetic oil is no good, on the contrary actually. The COST of the oil makes it prohibitive. Oil changes and filter changes recommended by the manufacturer are the best insurance for engine longevity.

I actually use Amsoil myself. I use Amsoil Synthetic 2 stroke oil in my Arctic Cats. It has a very low ash content, low pour point and never fouls plugs. It's also very expensive and I only use about 2 gallons a year. Most all 2 stroke oils are synthetic, I seem to have the best Luck with Amsoil in this application.

Now I am going to heat thing up.....

Oils are basically classified as 2 types, parraffin based oils and petroleum based oils. Synthetic additives are added to both types to enhance their qualities. Quaker State, Wolfs Head, Valvoline and others are parraffin based oils whereas Rotella, Delvac, Castrol and others are petroleum based oils.

A parraffin based oil will congeal inside an engine at high temperatures. Actually the paraffin seperates and coats the inside of the engine, especially if the oil changes are infrequent. That's why, in an older engine that has had a steady diet of say Quaker State, you take off a valve cover and you can't see the rocker arms anymore. All you see is a bunch of goo. Petroleum based oils on the other hand have no paraffin to seperate so you get no goo. The only good thing about the goo is if you lose your oil pressure, you won't spin a bearing or wip a cam. The goo lubricates everything.

I hope that answers your questions and probably adds more questions too!!

I am familiar with the study you are looking for. It was done by API for ASTM standards.
 
   / Which oil is king? #59  
Re: Which oil is king? -ALL BRAND NAMES!

Richard:

You are completely right and that especially applies to heavy trucks. That's why I follow the manufacturers recommendation as to service and proper lubricants.

I was aware that when I modified my PowerStroke I would be flirting with a voided warranty, even though Banks Engineering said it was not an issue. My brother-in-law is a design engineer for Ford SVO and he told me that it would be entirely up to Fords DISCRETION as to whether they would or would not honor a warranty claim due to an engine problem whether the cause was from a modification or not.
 
   / Which oil is king? #60  
Re: Which oil is king? -ALL BRAND NAMES!

Richard:

I also want to publically apologize for that letter the other day, I just wanted to get it off my chest so-to-speak. I wasn't trying to upset you in any way.
 

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