Which tow vehicle to buy?

[HGM]

2 words about the 6.0 diesel............STAY AWAY. I really don't believe that Ford is dropping that engine for anything other than repair problems. There is a reason that a very high number of Ford dealers nationwide are under some sort of warranty audit review from Ford because of high number of repairs. Alot of dealers now are refusing to work on the diesel and just sending them down the road to another dealer so there warranty numbers don't increase anymore. Techs are gettting shafted left and right over this engine. At least 3 vehicles a week are getting the cabs lifted off and headgaskets replaced at our shop. We have replaced the factory headbolts with A.R.E. studs and found good success with that modification. The studs do a much better job than the standard headbolts. Turbo after turbo after turbo issues. Oil leaks, egr concerns one right after the other. Don't walk away from the 6.0...... RUN!!!

Donnie, I respect your opinion... I have heard it from techs in the past and can admit that if you work on something enough you get tired of it.... Are you the diesel tech at your shop? The reason I ask is, as a tech you signed on to fix broken vehicles(really doesnt matter what vehicle you work on).. You are like a doctor, they dont come to you because they like the way you look.. Immagine being a Gynocologist(enough said in my opinion).... If these trucks(the most popular diesel pickup in the world/arguably)didnt break, you wouldnt have much to do.. With roughly 300,000(the number I have seen) diesel Super Duty trucks produced each year, you have a pretty good likelyhood of working on one... Then add to it the way the trucks are treated... BTW, if your the diesel guy at your shop, can you add your opinion of what the cause of most of these failures are? I have admited several times(in this post) that the 6.0L was tempermental and not forgiving when it comes to maintenance and abuse, but can you honestly say that you wouldnt have one since you know so much about them? I cant... Personally, I deal with quite a bit of them and I'm impressed with what they are as a whole.. Sure, there are things that shouldnt happen from time to time, but most of what I see are from uninformed customers, lack of maint, abuse, and in some cases untrained techs..(in no way directed at you, but an observation of many dealers).. I completely agree that if you want the power Dargo has added to his and want to drag race, use it as a grocery getter or use a 350 to do the work of a 750 for tax purposes this engine isnt for you... If you use it as designed for what it was designed for, you wond see nearly the failures we have seen... My honest opinion is that Ford is going way beyond their responsabilities as far as warantying these trucks.. To put $15,000 in a truck because the customer blew it up with a programer is rediculous... I wont get into the labor times, thats a different point and if you want my opinion on them you can PM me... I think its only fair to give the whole story rather than the "every one I work on is broke"(duh) story...

 

[JESSE1]

Very well said! Also seems that most of the negatives about the 6.0 come from people who've never owned one!

 

[jayhaitch]

All I can offer regarding the 6.0 PSD is the one I test drove. Awesome! It was a crew cab long box. I was very impressed with both the power and smoothness, and the trannie. Floored the "gas" from rest, nothing except a bog up to ~2000 rpm. Then an amazingly fast pull for a diesel from 2000-4500 rpm, bam, upsift to ~3500 rpm, rapidly to 4500 again, bam, next gear, for 4 gear changes (5 speed, actually 6 but listed as 5). My 5.4 Expedition shifts at around 4600rpm so for a diesel, awesome.

Wasn't there some type of oil foaming issue related to silicone gaskets in the PSD? I thought it was the 7.3 engines. Are the 6.0/6.4 still made by Navistar/International?

 

[rback33]

I have heard SOME complaints about the 6.0. Only one person I know peraonally has has complained to me about the one HE owns. Everything else I ahve heard is heresay. He likes his except for the mileage. I have heard that complaint the most in the heresay that has gone around. I suspect the milage issues are related to things done to meet emissions, but that is a wild guess at best. In the end I am still happiest with my dodge I have now. IMHO nothing beats a cummins.

 

[BTI]

Eddiewalker said:
"How long do you plan to keep this truck? Using a 3/4 ton truck to work so hard will really wear it out allot faster than the one ton ever will. There is more to it than just which enigine you get. The entire driveline, suspension and most importantly, the brakes on the one ton will be far superior to the 3/4 ton. It doesn't matter which make you guy."

On a Dodge single rear wheel truck 2500 vs 3500 the only difference is an overload spring on the rea leaf pack and running lights on the cab.
This is on the ones with a Cummins diesel.

For the Ford vs Dodge debate...
GO to the websites.... for Dodge goto Turbo Diesel Register: Dodge diesel owners, you have found the number one resource for Dodge Cummins turbo diesel trucks!"
Ford: Goto Ford Truck Enthusiasts, 1948-2007 Ford F150, Super Duty & SUV owners community and information source. Covers F100, F-150, F250, Bronco, Ranger, Explorer, Expedition, Lighting, Escape and More and goto the diesel section.
There are other sites out there, that will help you make a decision.
I am a Ford guy for my first vehicle.
I LOVE the trucks and the quality of them.
I drove both, listened to owners and read everything I could on the sites.

I bought a Dodge with the Cummins and a 6spd.
AWESOME truck.
Oh and the resale on them is very very good.

BTI

 

[HGM]

Wasn't there some type of oil foaming issue related to silicone gaskets in the PSD? I thought it was the 7.3 engines. Are the 6.0/6.4 still made by Navistar/International?

The 6.0L and 6.4L are Navistar engines.. The 7.3L was much more succeptable to oil aeration than the 6.0L is.. The curring process of the silicone is what helps to deteriorate the aeration properties of the oil, so they do have a specific silicone for these applications(I personally wont use any other silicone for any application, the stuff is great)..

The 6.4L will have common rail injection, so the oil will be less critical for firing the injectors.. However, there will be a new "low ash" oil needed to keep from contaminating the particulate filter prematurely..

As for the Ford/Dodge debate, to each his own, I dont even want to get into that.. I would drive either...

 

[Dargo]

As for the Ford/Dodge debate, ... I would drive either...

I have in the past, I do now, and I will still in the future. So, that puts me firmly in which camp...?

 

[RobertN]

I'd buy a one ton Dodge diesel with a flatbed. The rest of the options are just a bonus.

Eddie

Eddie,

You bring up a good point that has been missing in this thread. A buddy of mine has had a couple of flatbeds. One was an 80's 3500 Chevy, the other an '01 F450. Both had hydrualic dump. Thos were the handiest trucks to have around! For general work around the property, hauling lumber, gravel ect, that flatbed is sooooo much nicer than a standard bed.

I would like to convert my truck to a flatbed, but can't justify the cost at this point

 

[Donnyj]

HGM,

My opinion stands. I certainly don't expect to be lectured about my choosen job profession. Save that lecture for the fresh out of high school tech who loses his rear end on his first major warranty job.

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I suspect the 6.0 has cost FoMoCo more warranty dollars than the 7.3 ever has. Remember the 7.3 Powerstroke was around for 9 years as opposed to the 3 to 4 years of the 6.0 As far as the large truck comparision, last I checked they use the same 6.0 engine. In large trucks we don't even try to sell the 6.0. Instead we push the Cat engine.

Would I own a 6.0? You are joking. Of course not. My choice would be the V10. The owners of 6.0's that I talk to say about 9 mpg while towing. Of course everyone has this amazing 6.0 that gets 21 plus mpg.

I'm not the only diesel tech here, but all of my coworkers agree about my opinions. As well as the message boards on PTS. Have you looked at them lately?

Some of the commercial accounts we have here are now going to the LCF {low cab forward} verhicles just to get away from the 6.0. Of course they do give up 4x4.

My suggestions for the engine? What difference does it make? It will be gone.

I understand that being a engineer sometimes it is hard to admit when something looks good on paper and fails in the real world it is hard to swallow.

 

[HGM]

HGM,

My opinion stands. I certainly don't expect to be lectured about my choosen job profession. Save that lecture for the fresh out of high school tech who loses his rear end on his first major warranty job.

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I suspect the 6.0 has cost FoMoCo more warranty dollars than the 7.3 ever has. Remember the 7.3 Powerstroke was around for 9 years as opposed to the 3 to 4 years of the 6.0 As far as the large truck comparision, last I checked they use the same 6.0 engine. In large trucks we don't even try to sell the 6.0. Instead we push the Cat engine.

Would I own a 6.0? You are joking. Of course not. My choice would be the V10. The owners of 6.0's that I talk to say about 9 mpg while towing. Of course everyone has this amazing 6.0 that gets 21 plus mpg.

I'm not the only diesel tech here, but all of my coworkers agree about my opinions. As well as the message boards on PTS. Have you looked at them lately?

Some of the commercial accounts we have here are now going to the LCF {low cab forward} verhicles just to get away from the 6.0. Of course they do give up 4x4.

My suggestions for the engine? What difference does it make? It will be gone.

I understand that being a engineer sometimes it is hard to admit when something looks good on paper and fails in the real world it is hard to swallow.

OK, now your making me laugh..... I'm sorry your so discruntled... I'm not trying to councel you nor am I trying to lecture you about your chosen career.... I'm just trying to say that I have been in your shoes(not all that long ago) and doing what I do(not really an engineer in the typical sense of the word), I see alot of these engines.... My veiwpoint stands, and will continue to stand.. I have seen the product from several sides as well as the bussiness... I can give an honest opinion on a product that I have nothing to do with other than helping people fix them..

BTW, the Excursion I was driving last year got 18.5mpg on a regular basis, mostly highway speeds of 80mph... The trick to alot of the economy on any diesel is a fuel additive if the fuel in your area isnt quite as good as it should be.. The ULSD should help that though...