Which tow vehicle to buy?

[Donnyj]

OK, now your making me laugh..... I'm sorry your so discruntled... I'm not trying to councel you nor am I trying to lecture you about your chosen career.... I'm just trying to say that I have been in your shoes(not all that long ago) and doing what I do(not really an engineer in the typical sense of the word), I see alot of these engines.... My veiwpoint stands, and will continue to stand.. I have seen the product from several sides as well as the bussiness... I can give an honest opinion on a product that I have nothing to do with other than helping people fix them..

BTW, the Excursion I was driving last year got 18.5mpg on a regular basis, mostly highway speeds of 80mph... The trick to alot of the economy on any diesel is a fuel additive if the fuel in your area isnt quite as good as it should be.. The ULSD should help that though...

The word is actually disgruntled {disgruntled - Definitions from Dictionary.com.
I simply give an honest opinion. No where did I see that definition in that word. I see you did not care to comment on the fact the engine in its short life has cost FoMoCo much much more than the 7.3 ever did. The engine is not built for heavy duty service. Do you agree? The engine is practically running at near 100% all the time. The engine will not handle heavy duty usage. It surely will not handle every day "real world" heavy duty usage. Why else would anyone buy that engine option? How many 7.3's did Ford buy back? How many 7.3's did Ford offer customer incentives to go buy another? I have said it before the engine when it is running right is awesome, if just won't hold up to every day work environments. I will agree the 2005's seem to be alot better. To little.....to late. 6.0 R.I.P..........

 

[HGM]

The word is actually disgruntled {disgruntled - Definitions from Dictionary.com.

Thank you ol wise one... I appreciate the lesson, sorry I spelt it wrong.... Good catch though, but it doesnt change the truth..... You're posts have over and over again brought up the fact that you dont like the 6.0L... OK I get it, thanks for your "opinion"...

Maybe you need to go back and read my posts...From the begining I acknowledged the fact that they have had issues.. The question you have over and over failed to recognize is what percentage of those problems do you think are from customer abuse and or neglect?? By actually reading my previous posts, you'll get my impression of the engine and its failures(I'm not going through it again)...

As for the 7.3L being so great, do you remember the 6.9L? It too morphed into a larger displacement, then the fuel system changed(emissions and power driven) and the 7.3L PS was born(dejavu??)... Nowhere near trouble free.. Those engines cost a good bit to fix(even the '94 PS)... Emissions required that it go away, guess what, it did, just like the 460, 302, 351,& 300... Times change, we are in the bussiness to repair broken vehicles.. The company provides the product needed for emissions and customer demand.. We are there to fix them, thank god they break.....

The engine is not built for heavy duty service. Do you agree? The engine is practically running at near 100% all the time. The engine will not handle heavy duty usage. It surely will not handle every day "real world" heavy duty usage.

Almost.... Yes it is close to its limits...But it depends on what you call real world usage.. If that is defined as a customer who will tow 5,000 over the GCVWR, or add a programer to keep up with his buddy, or let it sit for 6mo because he only uses it to tow a trailer(because his 7.3L could, it was very forgiving).. Then no, it wont handle it... Thats where the sales and service dept come in to play.. The customer must be educated on how to treat his engine.. Customer percerption of how a diesel is to be operated is simply wrong in alot of cases.. In my travels and dealings I have found a good deal of success with these engines with fleets that actually follow our maintenance schedules...

Some of the commercial accounts we have here are now going to the LCF {low cab forward} verhicles just to get away from the 6.0. Of course they do give up 4x4.

So, why arent you steering people away from these engines too if you so dispise the 6.0L?? It is the same engine with two less cyl and a different turbo system.. They too have similar failures, but because they are typicaly operated by fleets they seem to have better success...Much smaller volume though...

 

[Joe1]

You might want to do a little more research on the V-10. Several friends I know have the V-10 and pull 30' 5th wheels. They are getting in the 8-9 mpg range towing with an F-250. He previously towed with an F-250 with the 460 engine. He claims better power AND better mileage. The V-10 has been used very effectively in motorhomes weighing up to 22,000 GVW and 25,000 GCVW. Their mileage in the RV's is around 6.5-8 mpg and they are under a load constantly. They seem to be holding up well. The only complaint on the 5.4 and the 6.8 (V-10) is that sometimes they blow spark plugs out because the thread for the plugs are a little short. I've only heard this from my RV mechanic. He has had to helicoil the engine and that works fine and is a lot cheaper than a new head.

Any engine will fail if driven too hard; 7.3, 6.0 or anything else. Manufacturers do screw up when releasing engines in a hurry to keep up with the competition and the owner is the guy stuck in the middle. I suspect many diesel failures are due to poor design, but also due to poor maintenance, and drivers thinking the're in a 500 hp Kenworth.

The 6.8 V-10 puts out more power and gets better mileage than the gas 460 (7.5) v-8 it replaced. The 7.5 was a great engine, but was a gas hog and couldn't meet modern emissions standards.

Talk to some people that have the V-10. It might be a decent compromise between the 5.4 and the $50,000 6.0 diesel. It will certainly make a lot more power than the V-8 with some mileage penalty. Something that must be factored into the Diesel economy picture is that maintenance can be higher than on a gas engine. With EFI and 100,000 mile spark plugs, gas engine maintenace is minimal. Diesels also hold a lot more oil than the gas engine and also need fuel filters maintained.

Just to add fuel to the fire, my brother has an 2006 one ton SRA Duramax with the allison 6 speed with a utility body. He does drive conservatively, and with a 3,000 - 3,500 lb camper aboard gets 15 mpg on the highway. Empty, he gets 20 + on the highway. He hasn't had it long but is very satisfied with it so far.

The V-10 engine has been very successful (and I'm more a GM than a Ford fan) and can handle a pretty good sized load. (Keeping it only 2 - 3 years will negate the legendary 300,000 mile engine life issues for diesel engines). Plus the gas V-10 may be easier to bargain over because of gas price fears now.

Good luck on your decision.

 

[Dargo]

The only complaint on the 5.4 and the 6.8 (V-10) is that sometimes they blow spark plugs out because the thread for the plugs are a little short.

That has actually been a MAJOR problem with the 5.4 and 6.8 engines. Just type in "ford spark plug" on Google. All Ford dealers I know have been told by Ford to keep it down on letting the complaints out. If the problem grows much more, it could result in that R word (recall). There are already lawyers working on getting Ford to recall 17 million vehicles due to this serious problem. And, there are several class action law suits against Ford about this issue. I think it is a rather stupid move, but rather than helping the customers, Ford is opting to fight customers and handle individual law suits. Not many customers are happy to fork over a couple of grand for new heads. Also, it has been a proven fact that using a helicoil insert is not a satisfactory fix. It is about like using JB Weld to fix a broken block; it just doesn't cut it.

With all the other problems with Ford right now, a recall of 17 million vehicles requiring expensive fixes could spell doom in a big way. Ford's biggest mistake appears to be that they continued to use defective heads after clear documentation of the problem. It's rather hard to argue that three rounds of threads is adequate to hold in spark plugs. I just dumped my Expedition that had the 5.4 in it. Seeing the actuarial numbers on the true extent of this problem made me want nothing to do with having my wife out on the road with my kids in something that could go at any moment. As I said, just Google it, it is much more than a few limited cases.

 

[patrick_g]

I have had a 3/4 ton diesel (SRW) and now have a 1 ton (DRW) diesel. I have a 12,000 lb gross weight trailer with 4 wheel electric brakes. I would not be happy with much less truck with much over 5-6000 lbs behind me. I don't care wht the manufacturer's ratings say, It is my BEHIND that is behind the wheel when some bozo cuts me off when braking to a stop around a curve with a tractor on the trailer with 1300 lbs of box blade and FEL. This isn't an issue of convenience or economy that you have brought out for discussion. This is a clear case of safety and stability. Sure you may never drag race your truck with a loaded trailer on behind but if you don't have enough OMPH to safely accelerate to speed and merge into interstate traffic then you are an accident waiting to happen. I suggest an exhaust brake too. - - - - - - Pat

 

[HGM]

If you do have the spark plug concern, I would recomendthese.. Much better than a helicoil and even a new head in my opinion..

 

[Donnyj]

I honestly have to say I have not seen a bunch of these blown out spark plug concerns. A few years ago we might have seen maybe 5 to 10 in a one year period. As of recently I have not seen any. I think maybe I have seen 1 V10 engine with this problem. All the others were either the 4.6 or 5.4. Most of them actually were problems created by someone doing a tune up and not getting the plugs tightened correctly. I know Ford says the plugs will go over 100K, and they will, I always tell people at 30K to remove the plugs, add anti-sieze and retorque the plugs or simply install new plugs. $8.00 a piece for plugs is cheaper than a new head or a head repair. Ford does not recommend repairing the head. I have always just replaced the head so I have no experience with repairing the head, but I have heard it works fine. The biggest problem I have had with the spark plugs is not being able to get them out after alot of miles. Most of the time they just break off. I would not hesitate at all to own the V10 engine. Great running engine. Like I said earlier though, change those spark plugs every 30 or 50K miles and everything should be fine.

 

[jayhaitch]

I've read about the plug problem too. I need brakes on my Expedition. I have an appointment this coming week. I have 76,000 km on the engine, or 47,500 miles. Ford here recomends replacing the platinum plugs at 100,000 km. So you think the problems are more of head damage from taking out frozen old spark plugs? Should I have them replace the plugs now? How about the life expectancy of the ignition wires?

 

[HGM]

I've read about the plug problem too. I need brakes on my Expedition. I have an appointment this coming week. I have 76,000 km on the engine, or 47,500 miles. Ford here recomends replacing the platinum plugs at 100,000 km. So you think the problems are more of head damage from taking out frozen old spark plugs? Should I have them replace the plugs now? How about the life expectancy of the ignition wires?

Its a good bet you dont have wires, since you didnt mention the engine size or year, its hard to say... But, I would recomend either the wires or coil boots when you do the tune up... Its a safe reasurance that it wont be giving you a problem in the future.. I would definitly let the dealer do it, it may appear to cost you more in the begining, but not having to take it back later because someone installed inferior plugs, wires/boots or just didnt torque them correctly is worth it in my mind.. BTW, I have changed plugs at 150,000 that didnt look all that bad(maybe .070" instead of .055") but I agree with Donnie that they should be done much sooner..

 

[neverenough]

1) To the original post, buy the '07 with the 5.4. IMO, Ideally you would want the V-10 with 3.73's, but taking it easy while hauling the few loads you will be hauling in the near future will make up for ruining a PSD by commuting with it empty, daily.

2) The 6.0 was almost 5 years old when it was installed in the SuperDuty. A proven motor, with unproven emissions control systems gave them a black eye.

3) The reason why some have issues with the PSD is becouse they sit in rush hour traffic with it all week going to work, then hook up their 20 foot high 40 fott long oversized 5th wheel camper, and take it camping for the weekend. Diesels are NOT commuter vehicles, they are meant to be driving down the road with a load on the back. Not sitting in stop and go traffic day after day doing 20mph, empty. This is why you hear of many turbos being dropped in them. They are literally distroying the turbo, daily commuting.

4) The spark plug issue with the 5.4 was in earlier motors, I think pre '99, that had too few threads for the plugs.

5) I have to disagree about the 460 being a gas hog. The motor was never given a chance. I have a 429/460 in a 7000lb truck and I get 16.5 mpg empty and around 14mpg loaded. With a carb. Ford eliminated all the "old" motors when they redesigned the entire line in '97-'99. The trend was overhead cams. The old push rod motors got the boot.