Why do most tractors with FEL's.........................

[RickB]

Oh, I think I do.

I'd like to have more power LIFTING my bucket than powering down. I think most would agree to this.

Read this slowly.
The relevant issue is not the force developed by extending a cylinder vs. the force developed by retracting it. The question that began this thread related to mounting lift cylinders base end to the loader frame vs. rod end to the frame. In either case the loader is raised by extending the cylinders in question.

How that got twisted around to a discussion about extending force and retracting force is a prime example of guys typing faster than they think.
Most here understand the concept and so far as I can tell nobody is disputing it.

 

[Mysfyt]

Read my first post slowly. I gave more than one reason why I think mounting a cylinder like this makes no sense...or maybe I should have said makes less sense. I don't think dirt is the issue. I think it would have more to do with stocking one size cylinder instead of two or three so as not to over power the structure and/or the weight capacity of thr tractor. It's a bean counters move if anything. In my book it's BS. There! Let the chips fall where they may.

On a side note, there is no way I can type faster than I can think.

 

[TMGT]

Please explain why reversing the cylinder mounting would reduce the number of cylinder sizes they would have to stock.
I'm not following your logic.

Kubota uses different size cylinders on most loaders that are close in size.

 

[Mysfyt]

Please explain why reversing the cylinder mounting would reduce the number of cylinder sizes they would have to stock.
I'm not following your logic.

Kubota uses different size cylinders on most loaders that are close in size.

On a larger tractor you would use the cylinder opposite because it would lift to the capacity. Reverse it like in the picture and now you aren't over powering the structure on a smaller tractor.

 

[TMGT]

The cylinder has the same lifting power either way it's oriented as the forces exerted by the cylinder remain the same and the geometry stays the same.
If the cylinders mounting points were moved above the the lift arms then yes there would be a difference.

I'm not sure we're on the same page with the discussion.

 

[Leejohn]

All I can say is WOW!!!!!

 

[MossRoad]

Jeepers, fellas!

If the cylinder was reversed with the ram on the top and the cylinder on the bottom, and going up to that disconnect block, the hoses to the right cylinder would have to be short, have sharp curves and probably get worn out quicker. This way, the hoses are long, sweeping curves up to the cross brace and the hoses to the cylinders don't have to flex as far.

As for hydraulic cylinders and pressure on push or pull...

Let's take a 3" diameter cylinder with a 1.5" diameter rod for example.

The cylinder has a piston inside it that is 3" in diameter.
On the push side there is 7.07 square inches of surface diameter for the hydraulic fluid to push against.
On the retract side, however, there is only 5.3 square inches of surface diameter for the hydraulic fluid to push against because the 1.5" diameter ram is attached to that side of the piston.
That's why the push stroke is more powerful than the retract stroke.

Now, whether you attach that lift cylinder up or down doesn't make a bit of difference. Either way, when you raise the bucket, you are extending (PUSHing) the ram to raise the bucket. You are putting fluid to the PUSH side no matter which orientation you choose. It won't be stronger if you turn it over because either way, its an extend (PUSH) motion.

Does that make sense?

 

[TMGT]

Thanks Moss, you said what I was trying to explain.

I agree on the orientation being for the hoses, as I said earlier.
If it was because if dirt/water, then why does pretty much all comercial equipment have the cylinders with the rods up.

 

[oldpilgrim]

Mysfyt,

Take a hydro cylinder and set it on a table, with the cylinder to your left. Nail the cylinder to the table. Put a line with fluid being pumped in it into the cylinder end. The rod will push out at x inches per second and with y force to z overall length.

Take the same cylinder and flip it end for end with the cylinder now on the right. Nail the rod to the table. Take the same line with fluid pumped into it at the same flow rate and pressure as in the first 'experiment' and put it into the same cylinder end. The rod will still push out at x inches per second and with the same y force to the same z length. DUH !

It makes no difference in speed or power as to which way the cylinder is oriented.

That was not my original question. I wanted to know why most new tractors have the cylinder going up with the lift arms instead of being mounted on the tractor and just pushing the rod.

Thanks to those of you who understood and answered what I was asking.

 

[MossRoad]

Thanks Moss, you said what I was trying to explain.

I agree on the orientation being for the hoses, as I said earlier.
If it was because if dirt/water, then why does pretty much all comercial equipment have the cylinders with the rods up.

Exactly. Also note that if the quick attach hoses were mounted down low, there'd be not enough slack to keep them out of the way after they were disconnected, so there'd be a greater chance of damaging them when driving in to mount the loader. With longer hoses you could drape them up over the cross member during storage and not worry about pinching them when driving in, I'd think. I don't know, cause I don't have one. That's just a guess. But I'd bet if someone takes a tape measure out and measures all the hoses, fittings, etc... it'll end up being 6" less hose and 1 less fitting doing it this way, so it all boils down to manufacturing cost savings! :laughing: