Why Run?

[Robert_in_NY]

This guys parents are the same way he was. They refuse to take responsibility for their actions and look to blame others. Even now, they refuse to talk about "Why" their son tried to run. Instead all they can do is "Blame" everyone else.

Parents can't be blamed for all their kids actions but when you teach your kid you don't have to be responsible for your actions then the parent is to blame.

Having said that, this whole Bucky thing is turning into a big soap opera. His sister decided she was going to show up in the middle of the area where dozens of State Troopers are searching the woods for Bucky. Then she gets upset when the Troopers start questioning her why she decided this day was a good day to visit her friends (and Bucky's child's family). Of course, they pull the video camera and start filming all this "Police Harassment" and have their story plastered all over the local paper.

I do feel bad for the Troopers. They all just want to get this over with and go home as they brought troopers in from all over the State. There were over 40 State Trooper cars and trucks at the local barracks last Sunday including 4 pulling trailers loaded with ATV's. So it is fun to see this large of a force when the local barracks usually has 5 cars at one time. They started parking cars in a field as they ran out of parking lot.

 

[livincountry]

This reminds me of a conversation I had a few years back with a secretary in an office I used to work at. There were riots in Cincinnati over the police shooting a young man running and supposedly putting his hands near his waist band (as if he was pulling a gun). I said, "I guarantee I'll never be shot by the police in my lifetime." She asked, "Why, because you're white?" I replied, "no, because I'd never fight or run from a cop."

If I were the cop I would have shot the guy on the ATV and quite honestly I could live with it. For the sake of the cop and his family I hope he can too. The guy on the ATV crossed the line and once you do that you better be able to accept the outcome.

 

[rox]

Soundguy,
Before laying out the $$ I'm curious if you didn't jsut try to talk to the parents about the kids trespassing onto your property?

 

[Soundguy]

Hard to find out who the brats belong to. There are about 3-4 houses along that road with atv's parked int he back. Bad part is, is you see 'daddy' riding them sometimes too. And the cops won't come out after the fact.. only if the people are riding at the time you call.

So no.. I dind't put a whole lot of effort into contacting them.. was easir to take a sunday and put up 333' of 3 strand barbwire fence and a gate to block that side of my property from access. If the daddy rides all over other people's property.. I know it would be a lose-lose situation to go over and confront them.

Soundguy

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Soundguy,
Before laying out the $$ I'm curious if you didn't jsut try to talk to the parents about the kids trespassing onto your property?

Ever confront someone about their kids behavior? (Not asking in a "smart" manner) Most parents tend to defend their kids actions no matter what they did. And then the kids know they can continue to get away with whatever it was (is) they're doing. Add to that, once the kids know you're "after them", it all becomes a game to them. And from past experience, let me assure you, a couple teen-agers can wear out an "old guy" when it comes to catching them in the act. Best line of defense? Put up de FENCE.

Back in the late 80's, we had a couple teenagers that were short-cutting across one of my hayfields to get to an area where they ride. I called a sheriff's deputy who lives right down the lane. He shows up to see what's going on. While I'm talking with him, one of HIS kids comes riding up the drive on a 3-wheeler. I just turned away and walked back in the house. Some battles are best left "un-fought".

 

[Robert_in_NY]

There was an article in the local paper today written by a friend of the guy who was shot. She states in there that there are "numerous" trails in the area this happened for ATV's to ride (she didn't mention it is illegal in NY to ride on public land and private land without permission). She also stated (and this is the one I love) that in this area, if you are on a dirt bike or ATV and you get stopped by the police "You are supposed to run"

Here is a link to her article

Tensions still run high

Too many questions remain in fatal ATV shootingBy MARTHA L. HOWARD

http://observertoday.com/editorial/articles.asp?articleID=2498

(removed copywrited material - hazmat)

 

[phffft]

Well, that letter from Ms. Martha Howard sure paints a different picture than has been discussed here. It just goes to show none of us know the whole story. The trooper shot the ATV rider 4 times! The officer uses the riders cell phone to call for help, but doesn't look or find the ATV rider who had been shot 4 times.
Sounds like quite a few bad decisions were made on that day, and one boy lost his life because of it & other families lives were changed forever all over a minor traffic violation. Very sad.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Well, that letter from Ms. Martha Howard sure paints a different picture than has been discussed here. It just goes to show none of us know the whole story. The trooper shot the ATV rider 4 times! The officer uses the riders cell phone to call for help, but doesn't look or find the ATV rider who had been shot 4 times.
Sounds like quite a few bad decisions were made on that day, and one boy lost his life because of it & other families lives were changed forever all over a minor traffic violation. Very sad.

This is EXACTLY why we have a court system. Just because this woman gave her "account" of what happened, does that make her story accurate? I'd bet she got her info from someone else who got THEIR info from another party, who, well, you get the idea. In time, the truth will come forth.

I don't see where it matters how far the ATV rider dragged the cop. It was wrong, no matter if it was 1 foot or 1 mile. Police (from what one has told me) are trained to fire multiple shots when it becomes neccissary to fire their weapon. Not "one and let's see what happens next". I'd venture a guess that the OTHER rider involved didn't get "beat" AFTER handcuffing. Most likely while resisting arrest and cuffing in the first place.

Granted, there are SOME bad cops. MOST are good at what they do. Just happens that they deal with the dregs of society. Bad things happen when you involve bad people.

I still hold with the concept of "If the rider would have NOT ran, none of this would have happened". The rider would have probably been given a citation and gone home for the night, or at the worst, spent an evening in the slammer.

What ever happened to the "innocent until proven guilty" concept when it comes to dealing with POLICE?

 

[Soundguy]

>My point is that there were people on hand that could have made critical >decisions that might have saved his life if they had been allowed.

This one line of the 'letter' has it all summed up. The ATV rider should have made the critical decision of not placing himself in danger by trying to get away from law enforcement.

I think you are seeing some things i didn't. For instance.. I read that the officer used the cell phone of the person who picked him up.. not of the wounded atv driver.

As for shooting 4 times? Why not. When i took handgun training for self defense, we were instructed to -NOT- shoot once, then stop and look for reaction. We were instructed to shoot untill the threat stopped. That is, untill the atacker was no longer a threat. Depending on the firearm used.. you can run 4 rounds out in less than 2 seconds.. If I were in the same circumstances.. I can't help but think I would probably have done the same thing.

As for the arguments about shooting a tire or a leg. Well.. Shooting a tire doesn't stop a vehicle.. it just makes for a bumpy ride. And the leg? I guess it depends on where the officer was while being dragged. If he were behind or from a rear tire and back.. he might have only had a side oblique back, or torso/back/head shot to take.

The fact remains that had the person not fled.. the events would not have played out as they did. The young man on the ATV DIRECTLY influenced the actions that led up to his death, and is therefore primarily to blame for what happened.. tragic or not.


The write of the article makes a big stink about the distance dragged not being one mile. I can't help but wonder if they are taking into account a linear measurement from point a to b.. or perhaps a meandering path. in any case.. reguardles if it was a half mile.. or mile.. etc. How long did the officer have to be dragged before he feared for his life? ( How long does someone have to hold a knife to your throat before you are in danger?.. it doesn't matter if, in their mind, they don't intend to cut you.. it's what you percieve that you have to go on.

As for the belt issue. I don't know about the rest of you.. but to take my belt off.. i have to tighten it a bit to get the pawl from the hole. Perhaps the officer could not maneuver that well while being dragged thru a field. He was probably lucky that he could do -anything-.. likely he was just trying to survive/hold on/ keep his face safe. if he had torn clothing.. he was in danger while being dragged... IMHO.

And LOL.. the statement that it was 'what you do " re; running from police... well.. that sets the frame of the whole letter... the writer is obviously operating from the perspective that you should violate the law in order to not be aprehended.... so there you go...

Soundguy

Well, that letter from Ms. Martha Howard sure paints a different picture than has been discussed here. It just goes to show none of us know the whole story. The trooper shot the ATV rider 4 times! The officer uses the riders cell phone to call for help, but doesn't look or find the ATV rider who had been shot 4 times.
Sounds like quite a few bad decisions were made on that day, and one boy lost his life because of it & other families lives were changed forever all over a minor traffic violation. Very sad.

 

[Piedmont3]

Take responsibility for your own actions or choices or pay the consequences!
I believe that most of us probably learned this lesson very young.
If you are stopped by a police officer, say Yes Sir, and No Sir...
Don't be a Smart Mouth, you will just make them mad and then you will surely get a ticket...
If you think you can out run them.. Do you think you can out run that Radio?

If a policeman gives me an order, or asks me politely to stop, step away from somewhere or step towards somewhere, I am going to respond repectfully, and do as asked or told. If I chose to try to run, I made that choice, I expect to pay the consequences.

I have only been arrested once, when I was 26 years old. I was MAD! I had caught a casual friend with my girl friend in the back of his blazer. I stuck my arm through the window, drug him out a proceded to put him in the hospital. My "GirlFriend" hit me in the side of the head with a longneck beer bottle. The security at the bar showed up, called the police. When the police arrived they were giving orders.. shut-UP, Sit Down and don't Move. I followed all their orders, She did not. I got charged with Assault and Battery, a misdemeanor in OK. She got charged with Assault and Battery and resisting arrest and failure to comply with an officers command, or something like that.
6 months defered sentance/probation and I have no record. BUT.
When the police showed up THEY WERE SERIOUS.
In that kind of situation, in my opinion, YOU HAD BETTER LISTEN AND COMPLY, or be ready to accept the consequences.

 

[LBrown59]

1*As for the arguments about shooting a tire or a leg. 2*The writer of the article makes a big stink about the distance dragged not being one mile. Soundguy

~~~~~~~~~~
1*Just how accurate of a shot can one place while beige dragged along by an ATV?
2*Bet you couldn't get the writer to volunteer to be drug behind an ATV for half the distance at half the speed.

 

[LBrown59]

If you think you can out run them. Do you think you can out run that Radio?
~~~~~~~~~~
I did it once about 45 years ago.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

The guy who stopped to help the officer was a friend of mine and the son of the farmer who's field I was baling. Just about everyone involved in this whole thing knew each other and the only "outsider" was the officer. I still believe that the officer did the correct thing given the circumstance.

Also, I have not checked the mileage but it is a straight road that he was dragged down at full speed by a 4 wheeler (it is at least a half mile and the officer was dragged over a set of train tracks also). The people who keep insisting he shot this guy because he thought it was Bucky are just looking to blame others. Bucky stole a 3 wheeler from up the road and I am sure the officers know enough to tell the difference between a old Honda 3 wheeler and a new 4 wheeler where there were a lot of 4 wheelers running around this area giving the festival going on. The thought that the officers stopped a couple guys (who were breaking the law) and automatically thought they had Bucky because he stole an ATV is just ignorant.

It all comes down to the fact that he should not have run. I just hope someone reads this thread and thinks twice before doing something stupid when the police are involved if they ever find themselves in this postion.

 

[BillyP]

If you are stopped by a police officer, say Yes Sir, and No Sir...

With all due respect to police officers, I don't think that is necessary. A simple yes or no would be sufficient. If a Sir would sway the officer's decision, well, they need to find a new line of work.

As far as the trooper shooting this guy. From what I've read here, I would have shot him too. But I would have done it a lot sooner.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

I think he meant to say Sir to show respect to the officer.

 

[LBrown59]

The writer of the article makes a big stink about the distance dragged not being one mile.

There is no safe distance to be drug.
My brother was drug about 30 feet on a smooth concrete floor by a small fork truck.
It really did a number on him.

 

[Soundguy]

My point exactly. There should be no 'minimum' duration for timing self defense based on another person causing harm to you. If the threat is real and immenent.. ya gotta protect yourself..

Soundguy

 

[Farmwithjunk]

With all due respect to police officers, I don't think that is necessary. A simple yes or no would be sufficient. If a Sir would sway the officer's decision, well, they need to find a new line of work.

As far as the trooper shooting this guy. From what I've read here, I would have shot him too. But I would have done it a lot sooner.

I don't see it that way. The "sir" would have been a sign of respect for the badge (more correctly, the position and the LAW the badge stands for) I can't help but think back to an episode of Andy Griffith, where Barney was being threatened by the "town bully". Andy told Barney to stand tall and demand respect for the badge and all it stood for. Right here is what all this is all about....

LACK OF RESPECT FOR THE LAW. (And all those who obey the law)

I also see this as a litmus test for those who are good citizens vs. those who think they're above the law. The woman who defended the actions of a criminal and chastized the cop (in the newspaper article) needs some "old fashioned justice" in my world.

And while I'm on the soapbox, I have a definate issue with some newspapers that allow such nonsense to be printed. I believe everyone has their right to free speech. I believe the media has a right to report all the news. (Actually, they have a RESPONSIBILITY to print all the news) But, printing something that was intended soley to stir public controversy is a HUGE dis-service to their readers.

OK, I've bashed the media, now who's left?

 

[dubba]

Wow, what a nice letter..

Brad tried to get away. Why, I can only assume. It may have been because he had been celebrating

So he was drunk & driving. That's ok in NY I guess? Maybe expected. After all there were gonna be fireworks. Can't go see fireworks without being drunk can ya? But then again Lady, you have no idea what you are talking about, because you weren't there.

It may have been because in this area if you are stopped on a dirt bike or ATV, you try to get away. Right or wrong, it’s an unwritten rule

Who thinks up these rules? How can you know all the rules if they are unwritten? Oh, I get it. You know all the rules because you know it all.

If you can shoot someone in the back, can’t you shoot them in the leg or shoot out the tires

Lady.. Have you ever even seen an ATV? Have you ever ridden one? If you are standing behind it, can you see anything but the person's back or head? Would you have rather he aimed for his head? I'm also sure as a seasoned ATV rider, you have never ridden home with flat tires.



I almost want to move to this town, just so I can rile up this lady in the local paper

 

[LBrown59]

*I almost want to move to this town, just so I can rile up this lady in the local paper
***************
*Wonder if you even have to be a resident in order to write a letter to the editor in that paper, I've been tempted to do that.
Out of towners write letters in the editorial page of our local paper all the time.
This woman's attitude and perception is exactly what causes these things!

Wow, what a nice letter..
So he was drunk & driving. That's ok in NY I guess? Maybe expected. After all there were gonna be fireworks. Can't go see fireworks without being drunk can ya? But then again Lady, you have no idea what you are talking about, because you weren't there
[/Who thinks up these rules? How can you know all the rules if they are unwritten? Oh, I get it. You know all the rules because you know it all.
Lady.. Have you ever even seen an ATV? Have you ever ridden one? If you are standing behind it, can you see anything but the person's back or head? Would you have rather he aimed for his head? I'm also sure as a seasoned ATV rider, you have never ridden home with flat tires.
I almost want to move to this town, just so I can rile up this lady in the local paper