patrick_g
Elite Member
JimParker, Note that in the original problem statement a reason was given for not doing that. Of course women don't have trouble breaking the rules for their convenience.
Pat
Pat
will it take off?
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daTeacha
Veteran Member
I'm just checking in here, haven't read everything since my last post, no time, shouldn't be here now, but you know how addictive this thing is.
Anyways, Pat -- the first solution on that website is the one I came up with. The second one is, as you say neater, but it sort of bows to a different master. The first would not lend itself to mechanization very well, but the second one does. Also the first one leads you directly to the odd ball while the second requires analysis of all your results at the end of the algorithm. I think the first might win if it came down to a time race, but as I said I haven't really had time to read or digest things properly at this writing.
Anyways, Pat -- the first solution on that website is the one I came up with. The second one is, as you say neater, but it sort of bows to a different master. The first would not lend itself to mechanization very well, but the second one does. Also the first one leads you directly to the odd ball while the second requires analysis of all your results at the end of the algorithm. I think the first might win if it came down to a time race, but as I said I haven't really had time to read or digest things properly at this writing.
patrick_g
Elite Member
daTeacha, When I was hanging out around a university computer lab where when workstations were not in use by university students the policy was to allow walk-ins free access, I met Jr Hi and Hi School students who could have programmed the second solution in BASIC or C or whatever almost as fast as they could have read the solution, except maybe for a query/response section to let the user input the number of the "bad" ball and the problem with it, light/heavy.
I taught evening classes there in software engineering and senior projects classes for seniors in the comp sci curriculum. Some of the high school kids were as sharp or sharper than my average student who "on average" was probably near Mensa qualifying.
Pat
I taught evening classes there in software engineering and senior projects classes for seniors in the comp sci curriculum. Some of the high school kids were as sharp or sharper than my average student who "on average" was probably near Mensa qualifying.
Pat
daTeacha
Veteran Member
Back when I was in high school and first heard of the problem, our "calculators" were two. We had to get and learn to use an abacus for math as part of the class, and in Chem and Physics we needed a slide rule. The abacus wasn't expected to be used regularly, but we were required to learn how to use it as a math experience. The slide rule, on the other hand, was required as part of the class.
When I was in college, there was this special room in the math building (freshman year), where only specially designated people were allowed. It contained the computer. Every once in while, someone screwed up and locked the thing into an endless loop by accidentally asking it to divide by zero.
A few years after I started teaching, I managed to save up $70 and purchase a device known as the Bowmar Brain. It could add, subtract, multiply, divide, and find square roots in a package not much bigger than 1 1/2 packs of cigarettes.
I wrote the grant that brought the first computers into our district -- a TRS-80 and a Radio Shack Color Computer. They used cassette tapes for memory while I was teaching the kids programming in BASIC. We converted a hallway section to a computer lab.
I never presented the thing as a problem to the computer classes, even when I was teaching BASIC, PASCAL, or COBOL at the local college. It just never occurred to me. Does anyone even teach those languages anymore?
When I was in college, there was this special room in the math building (freshman year), where only specially designated people were allowed. It contained the computer. Every once in while, someone screwed up and locked the thing into an endless loop by accidentally asking it to divide by zero.
A few years after I started teaching, I managed to save up $70 and purchase a device known as the Bowmar Brain. It could add, subtract, multiply, divide, and find square roots in a package not much bigger than 1 1/2 packs of cigarettes.
I wrote the grant that brought the first computers into our district -- a TRS-80 and a Radio Shack Color Computer. They used cassette tapes for memory while I was teaching the kids programming in BASIC. We converted a hallway section to a computer lab.
I never presented the thing as a problem to the computer classes, even when I was teaching BASIC, PASCAL, or COBOL at the local college. It just never occurred to me. Does anyone even teach those languages anymore?
patrick_g
Elite Member
Rich, I had a Picket in eye saver yellow (mag alloy) in HS and later in college had a Post versalog (bamboo). Of course as a pilot I have used the standard circular slide rules for various calcs in that field.
My first electronic computer (not including the tic tac toe player I built) was a used Trash 80 16 K level 2. I got it and a self teaching program for learning BASIC. My first program was a space alien arcade program and the second was a celestial navigator that reduced your sextant sights to positions.
A friend of mine and I each bought Tandy model 6000 computers (aboiut $5,000). It was 68000 based and had a Z80 for I/O. It ran a port of Unix called Zenix. It had a whopping 15 meg hard drive and used single sided single density 8 inch floppies (IBM 3740 format which gave you 251K per diskette.) Then IBM became thte defacto standard PC and you could buy a Pascal compiler from Philipe Khan (Borland) for $49.95 vs $800 on a half price sale for the Tandy 6000. I donated mine to Goodwill and bought a PC clone.
A few months ago I specked out a s--t hot dual core monster PC with SATARAID disks of 200 gig each and on and on and on (from a major manufacturer it would be nearly $5000) I did it for a tad over $1600.
Pascal was a very good languge, especially for teaching structured programming. It was THE language in my undergrad studies getting computer science degree ('84) We did some assembler but Pascal was the mainstay. Ada was the only language we used in grad school getting MS in software engineering. It was like Pascal without the training wheels and on steroids. I took systems programming classes in "c" and classes in C++ and they have their place but for a real software engineer Ada was THE high level language if yoi wanted relilability or a "trusted" system. If you don't mind the quality level of Microsoft Windows and the number of dificulties and system hangs then C++ can be a pretty exciting language.
My first electronic pocket calculator was a HP45 (retail $400 but got discount at university bookstore) I still have it and it still works perfectly and RPN (Reverse Polish Notation) IS fun! You can buy way more computational power at Wally World for $20.
Pat
My first electronic computer (not including the tic tac toe player I built) was a used Trash 80 16 K level 2. I got it and a self teaching program for learning BASIC. My first program was a space alien arcade program and the second was a celestial navigator that reduced your sextant sights to positions.
A friend of mine and I each bought Tandy model 6000 computers (aboiut $5,000). It was 68000 based and had a Z80 for I/O. It ran a port of Unix called Zenix. It had a whopping 15 meg hard drive and used single sided single density 8 inch floppies (IBM 3740 format which gave you 251K per diskette.) Then IBM became thte defacto standard PC and you could buy a Pascal compiler from Philipe Khan (Borland) for $49.95 vs $800 on a half price sale for the Tandy 6000. I donated mine to Goodwill and bought a PC clone.
A few months ago I specked out a s--t hot dual core monster PC with SATARAID disks of 200 gig each and on and on and on (from a major manufacturer it would be nearly $5000) I did it for a tad over $1600.
Pascal was a very good languge, especially for teaching structured programming. It was THE language in my undergrad studies getting computer science degree ('84) We did some assembler but Pascal was the mainstay. Ada was the only language we used in grad school getting MS in software engineering. It was like Pascal without the training wheels and on steroids. I took systems programming classes in "c" and classes in C++ and they have their place but for a real software engineer Ada was THE high level language if yoi wanted relilability or a "trusted" system. If you don't mind the quality level of Microsoft Windows and the number of dificulties and system hangs then C++ can be a pretty exciting language.
My first electronic pocket calculator was a HP45 (retail $400 but got discount at university bookstore) I still have it and it still works perfectly and RPN (Reverse Polish Notation) IS fun! You can buy way more computational power at Wally World for $20.
Pat
Egon
Epic Contributor
[tic tac toe player /QUOTE]
Anyone ever win a game?
patrick_g
Elite Member
Egon, As you may be aware, common chickens have been taught (ref: B.F. Skinner, operant conditioning) to play a perfect game of tic-tac-toe. The best you can do against a skilled player is a draw. Whether it is a chicken or switches and lights and a battery, makes no difference. To lose you have to make mistakes. If you play correctly every game is a draw. Tic-tac-toe tends to lose its attraction once a player gets old enough to understand the game completely.
That time varies per individual.
Of course there are variants with enough difficulty to maintain the interest of Mensans for a time. Consider a 4x4x4 matrix for a playing field where 4 in a row (rectilinearly or diagonally) constitutes a win. You can substitute for a 3D game board by drawing 4 copies of a 2D 4x4 matrix (3 lines horizontal crossed by 3 lines vertical) This 3D version is a tad tougher to hold all combinations in memory so is a bit more fun and gives a pretty fair chance to either player to score 4 in a row.
Reasons To Own a Pet Mensan
This link tickled me.
Pat
That time varies per individual.
Of course there are variants with enough difficulty to maintain the interest of Mensans for a time. Consider a 4x4x4 matrix for a playing field where 4 in a row (rectilinearly or diagonally) constitutes a win. You can substitute for a 3D game board by drawing 4 copies of a 2D 4x4 matrix (3 lines horizontal crossed by 3 lines vertical) This 3D version is a tad tougher to hold all combinations in memory so is a bit more fun and gives a pretty fair chance to either player to score 4 in a row.
Reasons To Own a Pet Mensan
This link tickled me.
Pat
Egon
Epic Contributor
Think I'll just stick to plain old flat type of X & O's. Skilled player???
patrick_g
Elite Member
Egon, for the visualization impaired there are game boards. They are made of clear plastic "flats" and "legs" to hold the 4 parallel flats apart. You can then look down through the parallel flats to see a 4 in a row diagonal develop in 3D. Playing on 4 side by side 2D "flats" challenged visualization and there were certain diagonal patterns that were pretty counter intuitive (sneaky) till you had seen them a couple times. The actual 3D game board makes it way easier.
Pat
Pat
daTeacha
Veteran Member
I never got into the HD tic-tac-toe, but true 3d chess on an 8x8x8 grid always seemed intriguing. The closest thing I've seen commercially is an 8x8x3 layout, although I had a kid a few years ago who came up with a spherical chessboard that was pretty neat to play. He made it from a large potato if I remember correctly.
On the HP calculators, that 45 sounds like the one I offered to my second year chem high school class several years ago. I needed something to really motivate them, so I bought the calculator and said the one with highest number of class points would get it. One guy was taking calc at the college while in high school and he borrowed it a lot for that course. It ran RPN and cost about $400, so I'm guessing it was pretty close to the 45 you mentioned. Anyways, I ended up having to buy two of them since he and a girl tied. She is now working for the oil companies doing Biochemical stuff off the oil rigs in the Gulf, showing the EPA that the oil rigs are not harming the fish that live in and around the structure of the rigs. I figure that's pretty typical of government -- worrying about the adverse impact on fish by the very structures that make it possible for the fish to be there in the first place!
The guy had built a computer from off the shelf bits at Radio Shack for his 8th grade science project. When the color computer acted up, he asked if he could open it to see what was wrong. I let him and he pointed to a transistor(?), saying the colors were off. I took it into the store and asked them about fixing it. The guy quoted me a pretty stiff price, and I asked him to just check the transistor the kid picked out. It was bad, I got a new one for about $.50, and the kid put it in and fixed the machine. He went on to OSU, double majoring in EE and Japanese language while working in the library to revamp and update the entire computer system. Then he went to Japan for a year to absorb the culture somewhat, came home and got a job in the silicon valley working for Claris or some one like that. His first assignment was to convert one of their popular programs to Japanese language, which he did ahead of schedule. They were so impressed they boosted him up 2 rankings in the company heirarchy and gave him a small bonus check of $30K.
On the HP calculators, that 45 sounds like the one I offered to my second year chem high school class several years ago. I needed something to really motivate them, so I bought the calculator and said the one with highest number of class points would get it. One guy was taking calc at the college while in high school and he borrowed it a lot for that course. It ran RPN and cost about $400, so I'm guessing it was pretty close to the 45 you mentioned. Anyways, I ended up having to buy two of them since he and a girl tied. She is now working for the oil companies doing Biochemical stuff off the oil rigs in the Gulf, showing the EPA that the oil rigs are not harming the fish that live in and around the structure of the rigs. I figure that's pretty typical of government -- worrying about the adverse impact on fish by the very structures that make it possible for the fish to be there in the first place!
The guy had built a computer from off the shelf bits at Radio Shack for his 8th grade science project. When the color computer acted up, he asked if he could open it to see what was wrong. I let him and he pointed to a transistor(?), saying the colors were off. I took it into the store and asked them about fixing it. The guy quoted me a pretty stiff price, and I asked him to just check the transistor the kid picked out. It was bad, I got a new one for about $.50, and the kid put it in and fixed the machine. He went on to OSU, double majoring in EE and Japanese language while working in the library to revamp and update the entire computer system. Then he went to Japan for a year to absorb the culture somewhat, came home and got a job in the silicon valley working for Claris or some one like that. His first assignment was to convert one of their popular programs to Japanese language, which he did ahead of schedule. They were so impressed they boosted him up 2 rankings in the company heirarchy and gave him a small bonus check of $30K.
