wire guage simple question

   / wire guage simple question #41  
in case you didn't find the coneyor belt post it was a hypothetical post about an airplane taking off on a conveyor belt.. etc..

yep.. no offense intended.

soundguy


Soundguy,
There was no offense taken on my behalf and as far as I'm concerned I consider that any prior posts were made with good intentions plus I noticed the smiley faces. One thing though is that I almost went blind looking for reference to the "magic conveyor belt" before I gave up. :D
Take care,
Jim
 
   / wire guage simple question #42  
is it really necescary to wire a tractor using aircraft standards? I suspect it would not be practical...

soundguy

Of course it is not necessary (or typically particularly practical or cost effective) to wire a tractor to aircraft standards. Whether or not it is practical to do so in some repair or mod situation as a particular instance is a separate issue to be judged on its own merits. In general it does no harm to work to a higher standard than the "norm" (lowest common denominator) except a little more $ and time which may be well invested or excessive depending on the degree to which it is taken and any "return" on the investment.

Take for example the widespread use of insulation displacement splices, typically crimped on with pliers or a hammer, that are widely used in automotive after-market installations as well as new construction in trailers. It is not uncommon to see these used on tractor wiring (not typically OEM.) It is not a question of whether or not they will fail but when will they fail.

There are solder joints and then there are good solder joints and then there are NASA quality solder joints. Doing more than the bare minimum is not a bad thing. You and I may tend to use solder joints where proper crimped connections are as good or better. I have had experience with crimped connections that failed: wires that fell out of the splice after crimping, cut conductors, damaged insulation on insulated splices and terminals and on and on... mostly preventable with proper use of proper tools. With a modicum of care I (and I'm sure your soldering technique is adequate given your long term success) have high confidence in my solder joints.

After the praise of our soldering I still like crimped connections in many applications. There are now readily available crimp-on insulated butt splices that are designed for underwater use such as in wiring a submerged well pump. These are good for automotive and tractor use and are impervious to Immersion in mud and water or road salt. They look like and are applied like regular insulated butt splices but there is a heat liquefying sealant on the inside of the plastic insulation. The plastic insulation itself is shrink plastic.

So, after crimping these on you heat the splice and the insulation shrinks down and the inner sealant liquefies and oozes out the ends forming a hermetic seal. If you damage the insulation during crimping you still get water tight integrity as the sealant flows out through the holes you have made in the plastic and seals them (in all cases I have observed.) These are way faster to install than to make a proper solder joint and then insulate with shrink. DIY heat shrinked solder joints are NOT typically water proof just fairly water resistant unless you do something like inject silicone seal inside the shrink before heating which is a lot more hassle than the water proof shrink covered butt splices. There is shrink tubing with sealant inside and this is better than regular shrink but not as handy as the water proof splices.

I don't think the poster was arguing in favor of A/C standards for all tractor wiring or even for all DIY mods and repairs. His comments regarding crimped connections being superior to soldered connections in a high vibration environment are correct. Given the skill of the average DIY repair person I'd expect their crimping ability to exceed their soldering ability and make crimping a better choice. For old pros like ourselves with good soldering skills, we have the option to get a high quality joint either way.

++++ Oh by the way... I have exercised my new HF hydraulic wire splice crimper (12 through 00 ga including AWG 7) and I am impressed with it.

Pat
 
   / wire guage simple question #43  
is i++++ Oh by the way... I have exercised my new HF hydraulic wire splice crimper (12 through 00 ga including AWG 7) and I am impressed with it.

Pat
i
Is it possible to get a link to that machine?
 
   / wire guage simple question #44  
Solder is a fine thing in its place and done right.

If flexibility and vibration are not issues I have been known to use a short piece of copper tubing as a but splice (with or without crimping), applying heat with a torch to the copper tubing and feeding in the flux cored solder at both ends of the tubing. A propane torch or even oxy-acetylene can be used to heat the tube so fast that you can get solder in both ends and get proper flow before the heat or solder flows too far up the wires. The advantages of the copper tube are that it takes the heat well allowing you to use much more intense heat and get the job done without overheating the two wires and the tube protects the small strands from the intense heat of the torch.

I also use short lengths of copper tubing to make ring terminals: insert wire part way into the tube and crimp or hammer it flat. Solder the wire to the tube as above and then drill a hole in the flattened part of the tube that doesn't have wire in it. This is easy to do and makes connections that have lasted me for decades and I have never had a failure. Saves considerable $ too as large ring terminals are expensive and little scraps of copper tubing aren't.

How am I going to splice my #4 and #6 wires? I guarantee it will not be wire nuts.

I have recently purchased a hydraulic crimper with a set of dies to cover 12 ga to double ought. I am not happy with the high cost of store bought butt splices for the larger wires but... I don't have to do all that many.

Pat
I didn't happen to notice anything about cleaning of the residual flux to help prevent corrosion. No warnings in this entire thread against using silicone's with a vinegar smell either. :rolleyes: Proper prep and cleanup account for the bulk of the job :)

No mention of solder seal connectors or crimp AND solder either.
 
   / wire guage simple question #45  
is i++++ Oh by the way... I have exercised my new HF hydraulic wire splice crimper (12 through 00 ga including AWG 7) and I am impressed with it.

Pat
i
Is it possible to get a link to that machine?
go to harborfreight.com type in hydraulic crimper in the search window or try this...

- Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

I have a portable hand held electro-hydraulic rebar shear that cuts through rebar up to 3/4 and larger like they were warm butter. If it only had interchangeable dies it would make a great crimper.

Of course I have no clue how long the tool will last but I don't do thousands of crimps on really big wire so it may never fail in my service. Hydraulic jack technology is not exactly new or cutting edge so no reason to suspect it is not a good example. It is essentially a small hydraulic jack spring loaded to return to the open positioin when you turn the control knob from close to open. It gives you a tremendous mechanical (hydraulic?) advantage and you don't have to be Hercules to crimp a welding cable. I haven't yet tried it on the crimp splices I use for repairing fences but I suspect it will do a really great job if I select the right dies. It comes with dies for the following AWG wire sizes: 12, 10, 8, 7, 6, 4, 2, 0, and 00.

Anyone use 7 ga wire? I don't recall having seen any.

Is is cheaper than a decent PEX crimper and I wish it could be fitted with dies for crimping PEX fittings. It will fit into smaller spaces than my PEX crimpers and would be easier to squeeze.

Pat
 
   / wire guage simple question #46  
I didn't happen to notice anything about cleaning of the residual flux to help prevent corrosion. No warnings in this entire thread against using silicone's with a vinegar smell either. :rolleyes: Proper prep and cleanup account for the bulk of the job :)

No mention of solder seal connectors or crimp AND solder either.



not all fluxes are corosive.. but ditto on the rtv...

soundguy
 
   / wire guage simple question #47  
not all fluxes are corosive.. but ditto on the rtv...

soundguy

I don't think that there is ANY flux in flux cored solder that is approved for electrical connections that is corrosive.

Some RTV puts out acetic acid on contact with the moisture required for a cure. Once that is dissipated there is no residual problem. Wire, even multi-strand, properly tinned, should be OK unless the RTV application is out of control. If in doubt, use a different sealant. I have on occasion put shrink over a splice and then placed a second piece of shrink over that but with silicone inside the second piece. No silicone to copper contact so the evil acetic acid doesn't get a shot at the copper but the joint is waterproof.

With the easy availability of heat shrink tubing with the heat melted inner coating of sealant or the waterproof butt splices (even Harbor Freight sells them) there is not much need for silicone seal to waterproof a connection.

Pat
 
   / wire guage simple question #48  
Since he mentioned corosive flux I just assumed he was thinking of liquid brush on cleanei or paste fluxes, not the rosin ones inside the flux cored solder That was my guess anyway..

soundguy

I don't think that there is ANY flux in flux cored solder that is approved for electrical connections that is corrosive.

Some RTV puts out acetic acid on contact with the moisture required for a cure. Once that is dissipated there is no residual problem. Wire, even multi-strand, properly tinned, should be OK unless the RTV application is out of control. If in doubt, use a different sealant. I have on occasion put shrink over a splice and then placed a second piece of shrink over that but with silicone inside the second piece. No silicone to copper contact so the evil acetic acid doesn't get a shot at the copper but the joint is waterproof.

With the easy availability of heat shrink tubing with the heat melted inner coating of sealant or the waterproof butt splices (even Harbor Freight sells them) there is not much need for silicone seal to waterproof a connection.

Pat
 
   / wire guage simple question #49  
Since he mentioned corosive flux I just assumed he was thinking of liquid brush on cleanei or paste fluxes, not the rosin ones inside the flux cored solder That was my guess anyway..

soundguy

Oh yeah, probably so but just to be sure we don't leave out something important... Corrosive fluxes are not normally intended for use in electrical soldering. There are paste fluxes (AKA paste solder or soloder paste) that are a blend of proper electrical flux AND finely divided solder particles and these are intended for electrical/electronic use but they are NOT corrosive.

Corrosive fluxes are typically intended for soldering galvanized metal as well as brass and copper plumbing fittings and similar. Although there is flux cored solder with corrosive flux it is NOT intended for electronic work, just plumbing, sheet metal and such.

There was at one time (may still be for all I know) somewhat corrosive fluxes used in production wave soldering equipment for circuit boards but the boards were washed and rinsed subsequent to the wave soldering process so corrosion was not an issue, if done right.

Wave soldering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pat
 
   / wire guage simple question #50  
wave soldering is neat.. I worked at a place that had a wave solder vat....

soundguy
 
   / wire guage simple question #51  
Wave soldering still uses an acid flux. The boards need to be rinsed soon after they are run through, typically within 30 minutes often sooner. Most small run houses (that's all I get involved with) use regular dishwashers for the boards.

Soundguy: Yeah, its pretty cool. Those things suck down about 15KW of power (and more for the AC in the summer time!).

Galvanized can use corrosive flux if you want to work without cleaning it 1st. I have a few spots on my gutter system where there is surface rust because the guy soldering up the pieces didn't wash it well enough. I'd rather clean it and use a rosin flux.

There are also water based fluxes and low-flux (mostly for paste solder). I wouldn't use them for "home use" as they require the metals to be very clean. Sometimes chips that have been stored to long and have some oxidation on the tin leads won't solder well with these fluxes.

I use a liquid rosin flux (Kester 44 formulation) when I need more than what's in the solder or if I'm using solid solder. I would claim that for everything electrical anyone in tractor land does, they should use a rosin flux.

Hmm. The horse isn't breathing any more... ;)

Pete
 
   / wire guage simple question #52  
Sooo "What ever happened to Chopped".. I asked the question in the begining.. Ac or Dc... ?? Is "chopped" working on his well pump or his tractor ??? Lots about the do's and don't of soldering and crimping.. and so on,, but what about "chopped"... What it he up to??? Where did he go ???:confused:
 
   / wire guage simple question #53  
i also like the 44 rosin flux.

I have had plenty of luck using rosin paste fluxes on cleaned galvanized. I have some water troughs that I used tin tabs to repair holes in them.. made great patches... epoxy painted the damaged area after that.. been holding up fine for years now..

other than an old spool of acid core I had for some piping.. I doubt I have anything other than rosin core in a few different flavors for whatever work I'm doing.. some 60/40 for general work, and lead free and silver bearing solders.. antimony.. etc...

the equines already been burried at this point! :)

soundguy
 
   / wire guage simple question #54  
Sooo "What ever happened to Chopped".. I asked the question in the begining.. Ac or Dc... ?? Is "chopped" working on his well pump or his tractor ??? Lots about the do's and don't of soldering and crimping.. and so on,, but what about "chopped"... What it he up to??? Where did he go ???:confused:

See:
welder comparision?please - TractorByNet.com
 
   / wire guage simple question #55  
I think his original question was answered by the 2nd page. But this is a good thread for people searching on general wiring stuff.

The AC/DC solid/stranded "household current rules"/"tractor current rules" are all ways of generally referring to information about the environment in which the wiring job will be done. There are quiet assumptions about these environments and people have slightly different takes on what those assumptions are. I think that's why these simple questions always get complex answers.

Keeping a tractor running means being a jack of all trades. While the next line of the saying is "Master of none" I think lots of people here are a "Master of one". Some maybee even 2 or 3. The challenge then is to condense your specialty knowledge down to a "jack of all trades" rule set.

Soundguy: We can start talkin' solder types, but then we'd have to burry the whole team :D

Pete
 
   / wire guage simple question #56  
++++ Oh by the way... I have exercised my new HF hydraulic wire splice crimper (12 through 00 ga including AWG 7) and I am impressed with it.
Pat

Hey Pat,
I normally don't buy tools from HF but being a Tool Junkie that has more tools, especially crimpers, than I'll ever need my HF Hydraulic Wire Splice Crimper, Item 66150-2VGA, is on it's way to me. I can see it used as a small hydraulic press by substituting the dies for whatever I'd need (while working on my TRACTOR :thumbsup:.)

Regarding a AWG 7 Wire I've never seen or worked with any.
Take care,
Jim
 
   / wire guage simple question #57  
I was wondering if this would hold true.
If I wanted to have a 10 gauge wire but run two 14 gauge ones on the same terminal. would this amount to a 7 gauge?Ive seen people double up conductors before to gain the lower gauge.
Thanks
IMHO, buy some #10 wire.... As a Jack of many trades and a Master Electrician for 33 years, I value my tractor to much to do such a repair.. Trust me, parallel conductors will work if one follows the NEC book... So when one follows the NEC, 2 #14 wires is not an option...

Crimp splices made with listed tools & crimp sleeves work Great... IMHO shrink tube is a Great product and when used proper, I've never had a problem with my deep well pump 513' in the ground. IMO, crimp sleeves with HST are water-proof..

IMO, Home-made sleeves for splicing should be limited to an emergency / temporary fix.. Heaven forbid that such a splice fails and causes a fire.. One should keep in mind that said sleeves aren't listed and if found to be the cause of a fire, an insurance claim could be turned down....

Forgive me for not using the multi quotes...
 
   / wire guage simple question #58  
I was out of pocket assuming some people reading this don't know the differences. And also assuming that some will pick flux out of the drawer and try to silver solder with it because flux is flux. And not all flux core solder is non-corrosive.


Sometimes we think we're doing 3 decimal precision when we realize, oops :eek:
 
   / wire guage simple question #59  
IMHO, buy some #10 wire.... As a Jack of many trades and a Master Electrician for 33 years, I value my tractor to much to do such a repair.. Trust me, parallel conductors will work if one follows the NEC book... So when one follows the NEC, 2 #14 wires is not an option...

Crimp splices made with listed tools & crimp sleeves work Great... IMHO shrink tube is a Great product and when used proper, I've never had a problem with my deep well pump 513' in the ground. IMO, crimp sleeves with HST are water-proof..

IMO, Home-made sleeves for splicing should be limited to an emergency / temporary fix.. Heaven forbid that such a splice fails and causes a fire.. One should keep in mind that said sleeves aren't listed and if found to be the cause of a fire, an insurance claim could be turned down....

Forgive me for not using the multi quotes...

Allow me to clarify a loosely worded exposition... I use copper tubing to make my own splices and terminals for use while soldering on automotive type DC circuits, certain solar photo-voltaic systems (not connected to a residence) and other places (ham radio and experimental setups etc) where there will never be a fire underwriter's slightest interest.

I insist on code or better wiring and materials for my residence and attached shops. I hire lisc electricians to assist when in doubt.

...and last but not least... I was once a dues paying member of the IBEW too. Just a couple years as I was doing some work in a shipyard that was strictly a union shop and it was easier to join 'em than fight 'em. The union types (IBEW) never had a clue what to do with the handful of field service types who worked on SONAR, RADAR, SSB radios, and the like they just took the money and gave us membership cards that got us through the closely monitored gate. I did this sort of work for a couple years as a sabbatical from real life. I actually attended a union meeting once just to see what it was like. Not particularly interesting or enlightening.

Pat
 
   / wire guage simple question #60  
I think his original question was answered by the 2nd page. But this is a good thread for people searching on general wiring stuff.Soundguy: We can start talkin' solder types, but then we'd have to burry the whole team :D

Pete

Might as well.. have you seen the 2 tire inflation threads? they went non linear after about 5 posts... I'm pretty much just watching them now... :)

soundguy
 

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