Yanmar EX450/CL400 problem remains

[Eyecatcher]

Just finished reading Katahdins LX rear remotes post, and must say I'm impressed. 8/2/12, I posted "Bucket Float on EX450/CL400 unit. J.J. referred me to Cottermacs 5/30/12 post "1026R Loader Problems. Perusing Katahdins post brought up a couple of ideas in my mind. I hope J.J. picks up on this, he seems to be the hydraulic expert.

As in my earlier post, I thought that the problem had been fixed, but it has gotten progressively worse. The last dealer that worked on it said he changed the valve. If he did, the problem has to be somewhere else, and the only think I can think of is relates to the added remote. I'll attempt to update the problem here, maybe someone will cure it.

I purchased the tractor with 50 hrs on it as a demonstrator. I contracted to have front remote installed, by the dealer, for $2k, to power grapple on root rake. When I got the tractor back with the remote installed, after dumping, the bucket tilt "flops" until you hold joystick over to the right, rev the engine, I assume to refill the cylinder and lines, then it has adequate down pressure. After all the hassle with Yanmar America and the 2nd dealer, it worked pretty well after I brought it home, for a few days. Customer Service at Yanmar America, gave me no satisfaction when I reported this. Now, it has regressed to the point that whether you have dumped the bucket or not, when you put it down on the ground, it's limp. I guess in float. I automatically hold right pressure on the stick, and rev the engine until I can see it's charged before I try to use it. It's a big pain in the butt, and it seems to take longer and longer to recharge. Impossible to dig level until recharge, as it will either dig in or float.


The remote that is installed, is not factory. It uses a joystick mounted rocker switch and a double solenoid valve mounted on a fabricated mount attached to the loader mount. Very neat installation, hoses wire tied to existing hoses running up to the front of the loader, and QD's at the solenoids and the front of the loader. When it was new, you could open the grapple and dump the rake at the same time. Now one stops the other. When I got the tractor back, he gave me a bag of parts he had removed. I've often thought about returning the hydraulics to factory and see if the problem is solved. However, removing the liquid filled rear tire is a big job, and I don't know how it was originally configured.

After looking at Katahdins pix, and seeing how he ran the return back into the xmission, I'm thinking now that maybe the installer somehow plumbed the remotes so that the tilt side of the valve dumps into return and doesn't hold the pressure. It would seem to me that the solenoids would have to be plumbed into the pressure beyond port of the loader
valve, then to the oil return. However the return would have to be operable when the solenoid valves were both closed. As I recall from an older power beyond addition to a loader valve, one had to either block or unblock a port inside the valve to enable power beyond. I don't remember which. I wonder if they did this. How would it act if this step were omitted?

The only other things I can think of, is that the linkage adjustment for regenerate is so far our of whack that regenerate is always engaged, or the regenerate function in the loader valve is bad. If in fact the valve was changed, it would seem odd that the same problem would recur.

 

[J_J]

I am amazed at the price you had to pay for a valve to operate a grapple.

They took you big time unless it included the root rake and/ or grapple.

I am not sure which valve you have as some valves have the regen in the first part of lever movement.

Other loader valves have regen in the end of lever movement or far right with a soft stop.

The purpose of regen is fast dump. When in regen, you will have less power for curl or grapple.

Also when if regen, one of the work ports is blocked so no fluid goes to the tank.

The bucket should not float unless you are in float, which both work ports are open to tank. In neutral, both work ports are blocked or locked.

If the dealer gave you some parts, he may have removed the regen or float parts. You may not have regen now.

The valve you mentioned sounds like a selector valve that Surplus sells.

SAE 8 15 GPM DOUBLE SELECTOR VALVE 12 VDC P15544-1

But anyway, some loader valves allow one to use both spools on the loader at the same time, which means that you could use both the lift and curl at the same time or the lift and the grapple.

You can use regen with curl or grapple as long as you know what to expect.

In order to determine if something is bad, you have to know how it works. If the item does not give expected results, it may have functions the operator does not know about.

As far as testing a valve, it makes a cyl move with no leakage, and develop full pressure.

Regen would be part of the test as well as float mode.

What is puzzling is that you say it worked for a while.

DO you know how to test regen.

With no regen, you should be able to place the bucket flat on the ground and curl the bucket down and raise the wheels off the ground.

In regen, you will probably not be able to raise the wheels off the ground, and of course the bucket will dump fast in regen.

As far as PB, all valves downstream should be connected in series using PB. There is a hex plug or a PB adapter sleeve that has to be used.

Diverter valves do not use PB. They use the curl fluid.

 

[Leejohn]

How do you remove regen from the valve?

 

[J_J]

Real simple.

Replace the four position regen spool with a three position spool.

There are some parts in the can on the bottom of the valve that provide a soft stop for the spool, and it may only be a spring and ball to provide a soft stop.

However, spools are supposed to be a precision fit, and I don't know if you can just obtain a spool off the shelf and make it work .

 

[Eyecatcher]

The price I paid was for the entire installation, not including rake or grapple. I thought it was a little high at the time, but assumed that it was a dealer install, using factory parts, that was probably what it cost. They did say it was a kit, my bad for assuming it was a factory kit. The install looked so nice, and operated so well, I figured it was OK. Everything with that dealer went downhill from there.

This valve is a Prince, and regen is to the far right of joystick movement. It definitely has the "soft stop". Early on, I talked to Prince about this, and they said "We build the valve, we don't design the circuit. The Regen worked at one time, not so sure now, when it quits raining, I'll check it. This valve also has the float feature. You can lower and curl the bucket at the same time. I used to be able to curl or uncurl and unclamp or clamp the grapple at the same time. No more, when you activate one, it stops the other. I can place the bucket flat on the ground, and once I recharge the curl cylinders with fluid it will certainly lift the wheels off the ground.

When I had finally convinced Customer Service at Yanmar America that Lazenby wouldn't or couldn't solve the problem, the customer service rep from Atlanta and the Field Service rep from Pensacola came here to my place, operated the tractor, and agreed it was not right, and made arrangements for the dealer in Lakeland to come get the tractor and fix it. The first fix they said it had the wrong fluid in it. I went over there and insisted they take a brand new EX450 and compare it to mine in a field test.
That convinced them that they had not solved the problem. Yanmar then authorized them to replace the loader valve, and said they shipped it to them. The day they called and said it was done, I returned to the dealership, and it seemed to work OK. However, they could not show me the old valve, said it had already been returned to Yanmar. Many phone conversations later, between myself and customer service rep, he never could find the valve, nor find where it had been returned. After a few days it started to fail again, and now Yanmar just ignored me. The customer service rep was polite, but offered nothing. I guess they figured if they ignored me long enough, I would go away, and I did. Had again. I might mention here, that I kept twisting the loader frame when I first bought the tractor, and they wouldn't agree that there was a fault. The front member of the loader that keeps the quick attach pads aligned was sched 40 pipe. Replaced it with schedule 80, and have never had another problem.
What is a diverter valve? How does it work vs. PB?

J.J. I really appreciate your taking an interest in this. When I quit bugging Yanmar about this, I had decided that I'd keep the thing until it was paid off, then trade it off for something else. Now looks like that will be financially impossible, so guess I'll either have to figure it out or live with it. Why don't you give me a set of instructions on how you would function test this thing, I'll do that and post the results.

 

[J_J]

Show me a picture of your valve you control the grapple with.

A diverter valve will take the curl work port fluid and redirect the fluid to either the curl cyl or the grapple cyl using a switch. You either press a momentary switch or flip the switch in to # 1 or # 2 .
Then the curl lever controls the cyl action.

A diverter valve has no relation to the PB circuit. PB is a term and component to pass fluid downstream and is capable of high pressure.

You might have a 3rd function valve where you control a certain function. It is installed in series with the flow path.

The test is actually checking out the function of each item.

Does each valve spool control the fluid in extending and retracting and is there variable flow. Does the regen work.

Does the float work.

Can both spools work at the same time.

 

[Eyecatcher]

I'll get some pix tomorrow. The grapple valve is a double solenoid type, controlled by a dbl throw momentary rocker in the loader joystick handle.

 

[J_J]

Does the double solenoid have 4 ports or six?

 

[vukhuongduy]

Please advise me to choose hydraulic system. Thank you. Single

 

[J_J]

What do you want to do with the hyd?

Control a loader.

Add remote valves.