Yard sales and cell phones. (rant)

[Farmwithjunk]

I suppose one of the oldest theories in existence about behavior modification says that for punishment to be effective, the severity is much less important than the swiftness and certainty of punishment. I still believe that one, but unfortunately, in our society punishment is neither swift nor certain.

I may be all wrong. My opinion might be something out of the dark ages. But I just don't see "rehabilitation" as the first priority in dealing with hard core criminals. I say the punishment needs to be swift, severe, and certain and not a best 2 out of 3. Violent crimes need violent punishment. The ol' "eye for an eye" thing. But our society says the criminal has more rights than the victim. In my world, criminals trade their rights for a ball and chain. Yep. I'm old and out of touch with the modern world.

 

[irwin]

I may be all wrong. My opinion might be something out of the dark ages. But I just don't see "rehabilitation" as the first priority in dealing with hard core criminals. I say the punishment needs to be swift, severe, and certain and not a best 2 out of 3. Violent crimes need violent punishment. The ol' "eye for an eye" thing. But our society says the criminal has more rights than the victim. In my world, criminals trade their rights for a ball and chain. Yep. I'm old and out of touch with the modern world.

I agree, but history shows us, the system that allows extreme punishment will be abused by those that punish.
My wife has two master degrees in psycholoy, and while she was in school I read a few of her text books, one in particular was a study concerning several groups, they were split up and given roles, a bunch of groups were guards and the others prisoners, in each separate test cycle the guards were abusing their powers with in several weeks.
This isn't my opinion just results of psch. tests
I really agree with ya FWJ, just the problems don't solve themselves easily. wish we could do it right, not just do it.
Setting up the checks and balances of a system appears to be like a snowball rolling down Mount Everest. by the time we reach the bottom, the checks and balances are so bloated we're us listening to loud mouthed defenders of the unforgivable. Then we wish for simpler times.
When I read that a pair of morons that met in prison, got out and did unspeakable crimes, then read how the guards knew those animals were dangerous but couldn't do anything about...arrrg ...kinda makes it okay that the guards will be corrupted if given more power....

 

[Farmwithjunk]

I agree, but history shows us, the system that allows extreme punishment will be abused by those that punish.
My wife has two master degrees in psycholoy, and while she was in school I read a few of her text books, one in particular was a study concerning several groups, they were split up and given roles, a bunch of groups were guards and the others prisoners, in each separate test cycle the guards were abusing their powers with in several weeks.
This isn't my opinion just results of psch. tests
I really agree with ya FWJ, just the problems don't solve themselves easily. wish we could do it right, not just do it.
Setting up the checks and balances of a system appears to be like a snowball rolling down Mount Everest. by the time we reach the bottom, the checks and balances are so bloated we're us listening to loud mouthed defenders of the unforgivable. Then we wish for simpler times.
When I read that a pair of morons that met in prison, got out and did unspeakable crimes, then read how the guards knew those animals were dangerous but couldn't do anything about...arrrg ...kinda makes it okay that the guards will be corrupted if given more power....

A few years back, our church decided it needed to get actively involved in local politics. The thought was we should try to influence the direction our communitee was headed. (Not MY idea...Church should stay out of political arena IMHO) I got conned in to helping. (NEVER again) To pacify "us", the county judge executive decided to let us help (in an "advisory capacity" as "concerned citizens", with no mention of the church's connection) with establishing a new program devoted to counciling substance abusers arrested for driving while under the influence. We met with "professionals" in the field. 90% of the program was directed at building up the self esteem of the offender. Make sure we don't degrade them. Make certain we don't stereotype them. Give them a positive influence. Let them know they aren't "bad people".

I was asked to not attend the 2nd meeting. I guess they didn't like MY suggestions. (Had to do with making small rocks out of big rocks)

After 6 months, the program was scrapped. It was a total failure. Program director was arrested for DWI. The big rocks are still big.

 

[patrick_g]

Egon, Botany Bay? I don't think so. There isn't really any where to put them (yet) that meets the requisite requirements. In the mean time what do you do with all of them? In one regard, it matters not about the rate of rehabilitation, there will always be a residual of incorrigibles to deal with my some means to insure "we" are protected from them. These hard core will never be deterred so long as they can contact their prey. If we can't (aren't allowed to) eliminate them we have to warehouse them. A legitimate concern is to defray the rising cost of warehousing their rising numbers.

I'm all for "fixing the problems" with society that helps breed these individuals and treating most law breakers with dignity and firmness. I don't see having to feed, house, and clothe yourself through your own labor to be less than dignified and surely not cruel. Properly managed the criminal workforce should have sufficient productivity to offset the cost of guarding them.

If a free an open society that spends heavily on luxuries and frivolity can stay nearly solvent while maintaining a huge military then surely a closely managed "community" could throw off enough income to pay for the guard service to keep them away from us.

While I am in agreement with the psych theory expressed by Bird, I want to mention the positive reward system which is as powerful (or more so) as the negative feedback. Once a person is "in the system" they should be eligible for enough food and medicine to stay healthy but the food would not be anything you'd intentionally request. No library privs, no TV, nothing above basic sustenance. Lots of perks would be available depending on your "citizenship"/expressed attitude. You work hard and cause no trouble and you get fancier chow and a weekly dessert. Be really productive and a model citizen and get to watch some TV or read approved magazines and books, etc. The carrot is a powerful motivator, often a better tool than the stick.

Pat

 

[Bird]

90% of the program was directed at building up the self esteem of the offender

Sounds like a Dallas program.

This time, 33 years ago, I was a lieutenant (watch commander) in the city jail. In those days, and for many many years before that, the city had a number of "winos"; homeless alcoholics who considered the jail their only home. We only had 2 paid employees for the kitchen; only one on duty at a time to supervise the preparation of the meals. All the rest of the actual work was done by "trustees"; i.e., our regulars who were put in a cell when they came in drunk, got a shower and clean clothes when they sobered up, and were allowed to work in the jail kitchen, do janitorial work in, not only the jail but also the police locker rooms, and were frequently taken off the premises for various jobs. They were volunteers only; none of them had to do anything at all. Of course the work they did kept city costs down.

But then the powers that be decided that was the wrong way to do things. Now I'm generally a supporter of the Salvation Army, but they got a contract with the city for the city to pay them a large sum of money to take all the drunks that were picked up by the police. So the homeless alcoholics were taken directly to the Salvation Army facility and after sobering up, they had to just sit there except for their "counseling" sessions. They were unhappy and I actually had some of them tell me, personally, that they wished they were back in jail.

I also knew the counselor they hired to run the Salvation Army program because he had been a social worker who visited the jail frequently before that program started. Of course I was promoted to captain and left the jail before the Salvation Army program started, but I saw that counselor a couple of years later and asked him if the program was successful. He assured me it was, but said, "Well, they don't quit drinking, but they feels better about themselves."

 

[turnkey4099]

I suppose one of the oldest theories in existence about behavior modification says that for punishment to be effective, the severity is much less important than the swiftness and certainty of punishment. I still believe that one, but unfortunately, in our society punishment is neither swift nor certain.

Very true! That is one of the big drawbacks to our criminal justice system. When it takes years to get a simple cut and dried murder case to trial, something needs fixing.

The criminal has the "right to speedy trial" but defense attorneys are very adept at constant delays, requests for extensions, etc. Our current cause celebre has been dragging on for near a year now and the defense has another request for extension "to have time to prepare". It is a simple slam dunk DWI who killed 3 people.

Then when they do finally get to trial, they drag on forever. The Spector triall is just a bad example of both items above. That thing is still dragging on.

Unfortunately, trials are not now (and haven't been for a long time) about guilt or innocence, they are only about who can win, defense or prosecution.

Harry K

 

[turnkey4099]

Sounds like a Dallas program.

This time, 33 years ago, I was a lieutenant (watch commander) in the city jail. In those days, and for many many years before that, the city had a number of "winos"; homeless alcoholics who considered the jail their only home. We only had 2 paid employees for the kitchen; only one on duty at a time to supervise the preparation of the meals. All the rest of the actual work was done by "trustees"; i.e., our regulars who were put in a cell when they came in drunk, got a shower and clean clothes when they sobered up, and were allowed to work in the jail kitchen, do janitorial work in, not only the jail but also the police locker rooms, and were frequently taken off the premises for various jobs. They were volunteers only; none of them had to do anything at all. Of course the work they did kept city costs down.

But then the powers that be decided that was the wrong way to do things. Now I'm generally a supporter of the Salvation Army, but they got a contract with the city for the city to pay them a large sum of money to take all the drunks that were picked up by the police. So the homeless alcoholics were taken directly to the Salvation Army facility and after sobering up, they had to just sit there except for their "counseling" sessions. They were unhappy and I actually had some of them tell me, personally, that they wished they were back in jail.

I also knew the counselor they hired to run the Salvation Army program because he had been a social worker who visited the jail frequently before that program started. Of course I was promoted to captain and left the jail before the Salvation Army program started, but I saw that counselor a couple of years later and asked him if the program was successful. He assured me it was, but said, "Well, they don't quit drinking, but they feels better about themselves."

Alcoholics. I realized very shortly after beginning work in the jail that incarceration has no effect on them. Revolving door, in and out repeatedly. I told do-gooders that we weren't "corrections officers', all we hoped for was that we could teach the alkies not to drink and drive. That didn't work either.

Most county jail populations up here are misdemeanor and gross misdemeanor drug and alcohol involved crimes with a high percentage of dwi arrests. If incarceration changed them, one would thing that low level crime like that would change. Nope. Same people over and over and over.

Harry K

 

[Egon]

It might be real interesting to define criminals and why the existing laws decree them criminals.

Are the laws correct or are they imposing a set of rules that may/may not be in accordance with the the good 10 items to follow.

It is an issue that is greater than most of us are able to comprehend.

 

[Bird]

The criminal has the "right to speedy trial" but defense attorneys are very adept at constant delays, requests for extensions, etc. . . . another request for extension "to have time to prepare".

I don't know what it's like in other states, and haven't even kept up in Texas the last few years, but one thing I'll bet hasn't changed. While it's not a "legal" reason to grant a defense attorney an extension, the actual reason for most of them has been that the defense attorney has not yet been paid. They aren't going to trial until they have their money up front.

 

[irwin]

A few years back, our church decided it needed to get actively involved in local politics. The thought was we should try to influence the direction our communitee was headed. (Not MY idea...Church should stay out of political arena IMHO) I got conned in to helping. (NEVER again) To pacify "us", the county judge executive decided to let us help (in an "advisory capacity" as "concerned citizens", with no mention of the church's connection) with establishing a new program devoted to counciling substance abusers arrested for driving while under the influence. We met with "professionals" in the field. 90% of the program was directed at building up the self esteem of the offender. Make sure we don't degrade them. Make certain we don't stereotype them. Give them a positive influence. Let them know they aren't "bad people".

I was asked to not attend the 2nd meeting. I guess they didn't like MY suggestions. (Had to do with making small rocks out of big rocks)

After 6 months, the program was scrapped. It was a total failure. Program director was arrested for DWI. The big rocks are still big.

My observation only: unless the criminal or addict sees their behavior in stark moral terms, they will not change!!! the rest of the time it's warehousing, stopgate measures, it may extend the life of an individual, but will not change the ignorance that traps a human into obsession and compulsive destruction one drink or drug at a time.... We have to let them hurt, I believe only deep pain can open eyes. Most will stay blind, but it could be because they get pampered by misguided liberal know-it-alls.