Zero turn mower??

[Giles]

I bought a New Kubota ZD221 mower. I only kept it one season and just sold it. Other people don't seem to have the problem I did with lawn damage. Skid of spin marks everywhere I turned. I tried every technique to prevent this damage and finally went back to my 26 year old WheelHorse mower. No more damage:thumbsup:
I realley liked the speed of the zero turn, it cut my mowing time in half.
NOW MY QUESTION----I considered ALL brands of zero turn mowers before purchasing the Kubota. One of these, that I really liked, was the Walker Mower.
Could I expect the same lawn damage with a Walker?
Please don't suggest that I didn't know how to use the Kubota.

 

[Jim Thompson]

I don't have any personal experience with the Walker but there are several of them in use around here and they seem to do a fine job. I currently use an Exmark and a Grasshopper both 60 inch cut mid mounts. I had a Grazer front mount 52 inch back in the 90s and it was far easier on the turf than the larger, heavier mowers. I think, generally, that the front mount mowers have less weight over the drive wheels, less traction and less tenancy to tear/rip the turf. I also think that mowers with smaller drive wheels would be less inclined to cause damage. The last factor that you might consider is the sensitivity and responsiveness of the hydros and controls. My Grasshopper causes less turf damage than my Exmark. They have exactly the same size tires, but the Grasshopper's controls are just a little less sensitive.

Also, you can't do a true zero radius turn with most of these mowers - both drive wheels must be moving when you turn and I pretty much stop before turning, especially if I am mowing a turf grass like St Augustine. Bahia in an open field - I let her rip.:thumbsup:

Jim

 

[rswyan]

Other people don't seem to have the problem I did with lawn damage.

..... wonder why that is ?

Skid of spin marks everywhere I turned. I tried every technique to prevent this damage .....

But apparently not the technique being used by those "other people" who don't seem to have the problem ...

FWIW, I have a ZTR ... an older one: Simplicity CFC 18 Commercial Front Cut .....

I can turn it on a dime ..... and tear the grass up in doing so.....

Or drive it in a manner where I don't cause it to do that ....

Could I expect the same lawn damage with a Walker?

Probably ....

Please don't suggest that I didn't know how to use the Kubota.

Ok, I won't ..... .... but just in case you haven't figured it out yet, it's not the equipment .....

 

[Ken45101]

rswyan,

You seem to be big on accessing blame to the operator, but offer no positive suggestions as to what he is doing wrong. Could you possibly be helpful instead of just sarcastic?

Waiting to hear the answers....

Ken

 

[Heywood Jannockitov]

I can tear up the grass pretty good with my JD F620.
Here are a couple of "positive" suggestions that may help, based on my experience.

1 - Don't zero turn! Is there ever any need to, really? In soft, shady areas around trees where the grass is prone to getting chewed up, I do little 3 point turns so that I'm not pivoting on the inside drive wheel on the spot.

If you must do a true zero turn, you actually need to reverse the inside drive wheel so the machine can rotate about its centerline.

 

[om21braz]

Giles, the simple answer is yes. The Walker is capable of tearing up the ground also. The trick is either making sure that while turning, both rear tires continue to rotate (inside tire not just pivoting) or learning to move the sticks simultaneously so each tire is rotating, albeit in different directions. That said, using the second method requires a bit of practice and controls that operate perfectly/smoothly - along the lines of what Jim T. mentioned. The easier of the two is to just make small radius turns. If you actually do what I would consider a "zero-radius turn" you are 180 degrees from where you started and setting in the same line you just mowed.

 

[sweettractors]

My yard is mowed by a "Dixon" ZTR for many years and I have never seen the lawn messed up on the turns/corners. Ken Sweet

 

[rswyan]

You seem to be big on accessing blame to the operator,

Yup - I guess I'm just personally not much of a fan of blaming inanimate, material objects for things that I cause to happen .....

but offer no positive suggestions as to what he is doing wrong.

It was largely covered in the post prior to mine by by Jim Thompson - and subsequently by others:

You can't avoid tearing up the grass if you lock up a wheel to zero turn - you must keep both wheels moving.

I suppose I could have "ditto'ed" that .... but I wonder whether that would make any difference ......

Could you possibly be helpful instead of just sarcastic?

Perhaps I was being helpful ....... by intentionally being sarcastic ......

The OP stated that he didn't want to hear any suggestion that he didn't know how to use the Kubota .... methinks, in this instance, that might just be a tad unrealistic .....

Generally, in my life, I found it to be true that the first barrier I encounter to learning anything, is the assumption on my part that I already know ....

Once I figure out that I don't, I often discover that there is actually something there to be known ..... and usually the learning process goes much easier from there on ... (YMMV)

However, up until that time, any effort to impart valid, usable data to me is utterly pointless and a total waste ..... since the receiver ain't turned on ......

Waiting to hear the answers....

Well, I dunno if any of the above are the answers you are looking for .... but the above is position on the matter.

 

[Giles]

Giles, the simple answer is yes. The Walker is capable of tearing up the ground also. The trick is either making sure that while turning, both rear tires continue to rotate (inside tire not just pivoting) or learning to move the sticks simultaneously so each tire is rotating, albeit in different directions. That said, using the second method requires a bit of practice and controls that operate perfectly/smoothly - along the lines of what Jim T. mentioned. The easier of the two is to just make small radius turns. If you actually do what I would consider a "zero-radius turn" you are 180 degrees from where you started and setting in the same line you just mowed.

THANKS for a "useful" reply:thumbsup:
I am 64 years old and I have cut acres and acres of lawns and even run a small neighboorhood lawn service for a few years. Never had a complaint for my work.
I am well aware of the fact that with one wheel not rotating and the other one rotating will cause damage.
The problem with the Kubota may be of machine design. The tires are wider then most other mowers I looked at.
I have a lot of ornamental trees that are about twenty foot tall and I would just slowly glide around them, in an almost straight line with deck app. 6" from trunk. I would then push mow or string trim next to tree.
After the first five or six mowings, My wife and I noticed "distinct" travel marks left by both rear tires. I started using my regular WheelHorse mower and the grass returned.
It may be that I am different then most people in that just because I own one doesn't mean it is the best.
All machines have their good and bad points---IMO a perfect machine that satisfies everyone, and their needs, cannot be produced.
The Walker mower, as some are aware, is constructed differently then the mid mount machines and I was just wondering if it would be better suited for my needs.
I guess I can have one of the local dealers demonstrate their operation.

 

[om21braz]

Giles, without looking up specs on your Kubota - if it is similiar to a ZD21, part of the problem is the fact of just how much it weighs. If the listed specs on the ZD21 are correct, by the time it is full of fuel and me on it, total weight is close to 2000 lbs. Mine can and does leave tracks in a soft yard while going in a straight line. My son makes sure to mow in different patterns on his customer's yard so to minimize the effect. On the ZD21, the 60" deck sticks out enough past the rear tires to allow for minimal trimming on all but the tightest radiuses. IMHO, the Kubota's strong suits are sturdy build, fuel-efficient(diesel), and ability to quickly mow with a good cut. The Walker, again IMHO, is a different animal - it's strong points are it's ability to deliver a manicured-cut, reducing trimming to absolute minimum, removal of clippings/leaves, and it's lighter weight reduces the impact on turf.
P.S. (1) I agree completely that there is'nt one machine that is best for all mowing jobs and (2) a demo with a Walker sounds like a good idea

 

[zzvyb6]

I have a JD zero turn and have a few thoughts on the tire spin marks issue. I needed more traction for the side hills so I went out and bought a set of ATV high traction tires. The more agressive tread didn't really give me that much more traction, but sure tears up the lawn more. When I lowered the tire pressure to get extra traction, it got worse. These tires a a few inches wider, too. That means more tread is twisting through the grass, regardless of whether the tire is rotating or not.

I have some areas of grass over sand, too. There's definitely more spin action on the grass where its over sand.

Finally, the faster I go, the more likely I'll leave a mark. That's because the load transfer during cornering lifts the inside wheel, which looses traction.

If the other folk's grass has a more grippy topsoil, they run higher tire pressures, go more slowly and are heavier than you, they'll be less likely to leave spin marks.

 

[jcummins]

I can tear up the grass pretty good with my JD F620.
Here are a couple of "positive" suggestions that may help, based on my experience.

1 - Don't zero turn! Is there ever any need to, really? In soft, shady areas around trees where the grass is prone to getting chewed up, I do little 3 point turns so that I'm not pivoting on the inside drive wheel on the spot.

If you must do a true zero turn, you actually need to reverse the inside drive wheel so the machine can rotate about its centerline.

I have a ZD326..what he says is what I do. I can rip grass very easily. I've gotten very cautious in turning.

As to tracks, I try and mow in a different pattern every time I mow. It is heavy, it does leave a track if you mow the same way every time.

 

[ChuckinNH]

You might also wan to try a 4 wheel steer JD tractor. They leave a really small uncut circle, and don't tear up the turf. Depending on how many obstacles you have, it might also cut the mowing time over your current tractor.

 

[aczlan]

I am well aware of the fact that with one wheel not rotating and the other one rotating will cause damage.
The problem with the Kubota may be of machine design. The tires are wider then most other mowers I looked at.
I have a lot of ornamental trees that are about twenty foot tall and I would just slowly glide around them, in an almost straight line with deck app. 6" from trunk. I would then push mow or string trim next to tree.
After the first five or six mowings, My wife and I noticed "distinct" travel marks left by both rear tires. I started using my regular WheelHorse mower and the grass returned.

.
How soft is the ground under these trees? I have spent a few hours running Exmark, Husqvarna and Cub Cadet machines (both the ride on mid mount and the walk behind styles).
When on soft ground, they all would leave "tracks" (not ruts, but noticeable indentations where the wheels went) even when going straight.
I would guess that the marks are from the extra ground pressure of a 1500-2500 pound ZTR (rather than a 700-900 pound Wheel Horse)

All machines have their good and bad points---IMO a perfect machine that satisfies everyone, and their needs, cannot be produced.
The Walker mower, as some are aware, is constructed differently then the mid mount machines and I was just wondering if it would be better suited for my needs.
I guess I can have one of the local dealers demonstrate their operation.

I think you hit the nail on the head, the front mount deck mowers will do a nicer cut than MOST mid mount machines, but the tradeoff is that they don't pack on a trailer as well. Thus, commercial guys don't buy them as often.
One thing to note about the front mount mowers: I have a friend who has a front mount Grasshopper with a bagger on the back and when the bagger is installed (especially when it is full) he has traction problems. Too much weight on the rear casters and not enough on the drive wheels.

I would ask for a demo on YOUR property. Iif you are interested in a machine and the dealer knows you are not just wasting their time, you should be able to get a demo to see if it makes marks. I might be inclined to run it back and forth a dozen times to do a worst case test.

Aaron Z

 

[rswyan]

I am 64 years old and I have cut acres and acres of lawns and even run a small neighboorhood lawn service for a few years. Never had a complaint for my work.

Well ..... you're having one now, apparently .....

BTW, I have no doubts about your ability - the only thing I'm questioning is your technique.

THANKS for a "useful" reply

Well, in the interests of providing a little more "useful" answer than my previous commentary, let me see if I can understand the environment you are operating a little better.

The problem with the Kubota may be of machine design.

To some extent, it may very well be .......... I had a look at the ZD221 up on Kubota's website .... it's one of those two handled, control-stick jobs .....

I've never used a ZTR with that type of control setup, but personally I don't think I'd care for it .... might be the best thing since sliced bread if you are slammin' and jammin' cutting grass, in terms of speed and getting it done ..... but I'd prefer to have one hand free for whatever I'm drinking and/or if I happen to be smoking.

Our Simplicity ZTR has a steering wheel - not control-sticks .... dunno, but it seems to me that having a single input (the steering wheel) might enable some design and engineering to be built in, in terms of balancing the drive motors and perhaps prevent the user from doing some things, as far as working the controls, that could cause problems .....

Like I said, I really don't know - given the degree of sophistication on newer machines it could very well be that the mfg. has incorporated technology to avoid the above scenario.

Still, I would have to guess that provided the diameter of the circle you are trying to mow is not too acute (small), and provided you were moving slow enough, the grass would not be torn up.

In your original post you stated the following:

"Skid of [or ?] spin marks everywhere I turned"

and

"I realley liked the speed of the zero turn, it cut my mowing time in half."

Umm ... there's a reason that you reduced your mowing time by half - and it wasn't because you were moving slower - and it also probably wasn't because you were turning wider.

I have a lot of ornamental trees that are about twenty foot tall and I would just slowly glide around them, in an almost straight line with deck app. 6" from trunk. I would then push mow or string trim next to tree.

What is the diameter of the trunks of these trees ?

(IOW, what is the diameter of the circle you are trying to turn ?)

I started using my regular WheelHorse mower and the grass returned.

Is your WheelHorse mower capable of turning anywhere remotely near as tight as the Kubota ?

FWIW, when I mow, I generally try to mow long lines or rows, alternating directions - up in one direction, and then 180 degrees and back down in the other. For the most part, I try not to mow squares, circles, rectangles ... or any other geometric form ... other than just lines or rows. And I'm lucky because my yards are (mostly) suited to it.

My front yards (2, about 3 acres total) are mowed with a 72" MMM (Kubota B2910 with R4 tires, probably 1500 lbs or so) ... and my side and rear yards (1 acre total) are mowed with the Simplicity ZTR ....

Executing a tight, extended turn, at any kind of (decent) speed, with either unit, will rip up the grass - absolutely without fail.

Therefore I practice what might be called a 3-point turn: when coming to the end of a line or row, I turn to the left or right, stop, and turn (while backing up), stop again, and then turn (while proceeding forward) - executing a 180 degree turn.

The turn, if viewed from above, would look like a concave equilateral triangle (see attached image, and ignore black line thru center), where you were initially coming down into one of the points, and then once turned (after having backed up), exited out the same point, in the opposite direction.

With a hydrostatic transmission and a treadle pedal, it's a piece of cake.

This doesn't necessarily apply to your specific dilemma cutting around your ornamentals, but I include it for others as a workable technique to avoid tearing up the grass.

One of my solutions to avoid having to make turns which are too tight, is to put in mulch beds around plantings, which increase the radius of any curves I do have to cut. That may not be your cup of tea .... but it is a way to lessen having to make sharp turns. Some folks seem to like the look of them .... and it is less grass to cut.

All machines have their good and bad points---IMO a perfect machine that satisfies everyone, and their needs, cannot be produced.

Undoubtedly true.

The Walker mower, as some are aware, is constructed differently then the mid mount machines and I was just wondering if it would be better suited for my needs.

After looking at Walker's website, I see that they appear to very similar in design and size to my Simplicity - except that they use the double control-sticks, and do not use a wheel for steering ..... for that reason alone I'd probably have to pass.

Attached is an image of a Simplicity CFC 16 with the same size deck (46") as our's (our's is actually CFC 18) - it is a fairly light unit - just under 700 lbs, (the drive tire size is 18 x 9.50 - 8)