Depression

[czechsonofagun]

Too true. In my country peasants didn't get elementary freedom till 1781, and that was just the official step, in reality it was years after that.

 

[mjarrels]

It's a good thing that I like bean sandwiches... might be eating alot of them like my dad did in the 30's.

mark

 

[N80]

It's a good thing that I like bean sandwiches... might be eating alot of them like my dad did in the 30's.

mark

Check your Dad's age. The only reason I say this is that I had an uncle who used to tell us these incredible stories of poverty from the Great Depression when we were kids. Years later I did the math and he was about 4 years old during the Depression. And his family had plenty of money. But the stories were still great!

 

[dmccarty]

It's a good thing that I like bean sandwiches... might be eating alot of them like my dad did in the 30's.

Wonder which is worse, a bean sandwich or a sandwich made of lard and salt?

The US was not built on the backs of slaves. Very few people owned slaves in this country. A good strong young male slave in the 1860's would cost around $800. In today's money that would be 75-100K. How many of us can afford to spend 75K on an item? Much less and item that does have some expenses for clothing, housing, food, etc. And many slaves where on large plantations with HUNDREDS of slaves. How many of us could afford 100 slaves at 50K each? The slaves worked on plantations that grew large amounts of cash crops like tobacco, cotton, indigo, and rice. These were cash crops grown in large scale. Only a very few wealthy people could afford this much land much less the slaves to work the fields.

Other slaves were used for domestic work. Cooking hardly is building the country. Raising cash crops made some people very wealthy but it did not build the country. A slave owned by a blacksmith surely helped the blacksmith. But build the country?

The US was not built by slaves. The US was built by the millions of people who flooded into the country to make a better life for themselves. And they did.

Children worked because they had to work. Schooling is a nice to have when your need to have is food, water, clothing and shelter. The amount of schooling that our kids get today is proof positive of the richness of our country as well as the rest of the western world. The number of hours our kids spend in school today is a recent accomplishment. Kids had to work just like everyone else. Where there and are there abuses then and today? Of course. Working in a factory for an adult as well as children was hard, long and dangerous. Because of those abuses we have child labor laws, OSHA, and unions.

Kids working on farms which are also dangerous has been going on as long as humanity has figured out how to grow things. And if you are in an agrarian society, aka poor, kids work.

Later,
Dan

 

[N80]

The US was not built on the backs of slaves. Very few people owned slaves in this country.

It is true that most of the white population did not own slaves. But that doesn't change the fact that there were millions of slaves and in the south there were more slaves than whites of any sort. The economy of the south, which was a big part of the US economy, was dependant on slave labor. Granted, they did not build much infrastructure but they did build the agriculture and the economy... but in terms of labor, not design or organization.

Other slaves were used for domestic work. Cooking hardly is building the country. Raising cash crops made some people very wealthy but it did not build the country. A slave owned by a blacksmith surely helped the blacksmith. But build the country?/quote]

There were many skilled slave laborers and artisans, from carpenters, to wainwrights, to barrel makers. Many were often hired out on loan to other people and brought high prices for their skills. You are right, this was a minority population, but they did contribute.

The US was not built by slaves. The US was built by the millions of people who flooded into the country to make a better life for themselves.

I would agree that they did not do it alone, but they were part of thoe millions that flooded here...but not to build a better life for themselves, the built better lives for others. I don't think you can discount their contribution to the birth of this nation even if it was under duress.

Children worked because they had to work.

Well, that is true, but the word 'had' could easily be replaced by the word 'forced' particualrly in the industrialized north where the abuses of child labor were as bad or worse than those of slavery. This chapter in our history is well documented but often ignored for several reasons. This first of which is that the north made slavery a moral issue (which it is) to justify, or at least help with, the War. All the while, their own human rights abuses went ignored. And then the North won. The winners write the history books and the North saw itself as the Virtuous Liberator and as the winner they allowed the cover up its own special horrors and abuses. But child labor in this country was a disgusting abomination that often goes overlooked.

Working in a factory for an adult as well as children was hard, long and dangerous. Because of those abuses we have child labor laws, OSHA, and unions.

Yep, but slaves got their freedom long before any of those things happened.

And think of the abuses of the east coast miners that extended into the 20th century with ridiculously dangerous conditions as well as the 'company store' arrangements that often even involved 'company' money, company homes. It is said that the efficient mining companies got back everything they paid the miners making them little more than slaves.

An interesting aspect of slavery is that if you did a survey of the workers all around the world who occupied the same economic/labor/social class, the slaves in the southern US had by far the highest standard of living. This is not to say that it was good but it was better than the English working class of the time, the Russina peasants under the Czars, the Chinese agrucultural class, the middle European worker. This fact changes nothing in regard to the evils of slavery nor the harsh conditions under which they lived....but it does put it into perspective.

I get this info from a fabulous book which is considered the foremost text on slavery in the US. It is called Roll, Jordon, Roll: The World the Slaves Made by Eugene Genovese. It is a long book, but it is facinating and easy to read. It both confirms the brutality and evil of slavery and also dispells many popular myths.

 

[dmccarty]

I don't agree at all that the US was built on the backs of slaves. Did the slaves HELP build the US? Certainly. But the statement, "The US was built on the backs of slaves." is not true. The statement implies that slaves did all the work which is just hogwash.

Child labor was a part of the economy. Children have worked throughout time. It was how one learned a trade, be it farming, smithing, printing, or being a candle stick maker. But industrailization changed the way people worked. Both children and adults. The abuses in the factory led to work rules, OSHA, child labor laws and unions. However to say that this country was built on child labor is also hogwash. A child cannot do the work of an adult. Never has and never will. Did children HELP build this county? Yes. Was it built on their backs? No.

Slavery was mainly used to produce cash commodities. This made a few people very rich. I don't see how it helped most people in this country. I don't know how one can compare the slave economy to what was produced by immigration but the work done by immigrants was a far larger impact. Immigrants built the Erie canal, most of the railroads, settled the country, worked in the factories, created farms that fed the factories workers, created lumber, etc. Slavery mainly made rich men richer.

This country was created and built on the back of immigrants not child labor and not slavery. The only long lasting institution, sorta kinda/maybe, built on slavery that I can think of is Duke University and Hospital. And I think that is a stretch.

Did slaves, freed slaves and decendents help build this country? Yes. I never said they did not. But SLAVERY did not build this country. Slavery, well legal slavery, was gone by the time the US exploded economically. The growth in the US really kicked in after The Late Unpleasentness.

Going back to Duke one of the reasons there were tobacco qoutas was to keep Duke and his peers from setting the price of 'baccy and stealing it from the farmers. Most of them were pretty small family farms who barely keep starvation at bay.

Dang it I tried to keep this short......

Later,
Dan

 

[DANOCHEESE]

What's with the doom and gloom about the power grid? Why aren't the electric co.s doing something about it? Every so often I'll see an article about the power grid being overworked, threatening rolling blackouts, and brownouts, etc. Isn't the electric grid just a capitol cost of business expense for the electric companies? Are they waiting for the gubberment to finance the upgrading the the infrastructure required for them to sell their product? I know it will be an expense for the companies, but I would venture to say that they are always certain to make money. They need to spend some of it to keep making money.

Instead of complaining about the grid the electric companies need to fix the grid.

Try and build anew power line. My company has had the money sitting there fora new transmisison line for three years. The greenies will not allow it to be built. End of story. We have all the wind power one would want. We can't get it to the grid. Try and sit a new line near a poly wog. The cost of the materials is cheap compared tot he three freaks who need tot lak tot he ploy wog.

Just build it underground. Don't work yet we are testing new air cooled UG cable it works for a few miles. The heat these lines put off is huge.

 

[riptides]

Try and build anew power line. My company has had the money sitting there fora new transmisison line for three years. The greenies will not allow it to be built. End of story. We have all the wind power one would want. We can't get it to the grid. Try and sit a new line near a poly wog. The cost of the materials is cheap compared tot he three freaks who need tot lak tot he ploy wog.

Just build it underground. Don't work yet we are testing new air cooled UG cable it works for a few miles. The heat these lines put off is huge.

Yeah. Try and tell us about why greenies don't want them.

Let us see, you lobby congress and the EPA with special interest groups that create fictional demand scenarios in areas that your lines don't even service.

You sit on development rights for thirty years and then come back with "upgrades" that are no where near inital proposals.

You claim right of way on established easements without regard to new impact studies, environmental studies or community planning.

Exactly who do you sell your power to in the name of the grid? I bet it isn't the local community at all. Therein lies the issue.

 

[MossRoad]

It's a good thing that I like bean sandwiches... might be eating alot of them like my dad did in the 30's.

mark

And don't forget lardy bread

 

[MossRoad]

Wonder which is worse, a bean sandwich or a sandwich made of lard and salt?

Oops! I guess someone already mentioned that one.

 

[dooleysm]

My grandpa (born in 1923) has talked about eating warm lard mixed with sorghum for breakfast as a child. He also recalls peeling potatoes in the spring and leaving a bit extra potato on the peel so they could plant the peelings.

 

[N80]

I don't agree at all that the US was built on the backs of slaves.

I agree with you Dan, I was just saying they had a fairly big role. Before the War, Charleston, SC was the richest city in the United States. That's a lot of capital and it came from slave crops.

But the statement, "The US was built on the backs of slaves." is not true. The statement implies that slaves did all the work which is just hogwash.

I agree, thus my concern about historical revisionism.

However to say that this country was built on child labor is also hogwash. A child cannot do the work of an adult. Never has and never will. Did children HELP build this county? Yes. Was it built on their backs? No.

Agreed. I think the poster who said that was pointing out that most cultures are built, at least in part, on the abuses some group of people whether they be slaves, children, peasants, or enemies. I agree that this is true but it about as new an idea as dirt and does not add anything significant to this discussion. I don't know what the posters agenda was, but it is often revisionist history that portrays anyone who strives, wins, achieves and benefits from it as an oppressor. And while it can certainly be true, it rarely diminishes the names of those like the pharaohs, the Caesars, the Washingtons and Jeffersons. But if you happen to lose, then you will be cast as a ******, Lee or Bonaparte. Its a lopsided way to look at history and revisionism can't take that away.

Slavery was mainly used to produce cash commodities. This made a few people very rich. I don't see how it helped most people in this country.

Because huge amounts of that money went North and was used to industrialize the North and most of the time when people think of building a country they think of roads, rails and factories. That's why the US government continued to constitutionally support slavery all the way to nearly the end of the war. And at one point during the war there was a bill to concede slavery in the south if the South would agree to end the war and re-join the union. (These simple facts pretty much ruin the idea that the war efforts in the North were some sort of moral campaign to end slavery. The Union ended slavery when it was both economically and strategically beneficial to do so.

I don't know how one can compare the slave economy to what was produced by immigration but the work done by immigrants was a far larger impact. Immigrants built the Erie canal, most of the railroads, settled the country, worked in the factories, created farms that fed the factories workers, created lumber, etc. Slavery mainly made rich men richer.

I'm not sure you can substantiate that. Again, the southern economy was not absorbed by Rhett Butler and Ashley Wilkes. That money was a huge part of the industrial and probably even westward expansion of this country and those crops where THE primary export of this nation both in raw and manufactured forms.

I'm not contesting the role of white immigrants to this country, but the role of the slave remains enormous until the time of the civil war, following which the northern immigration of the now free slaves provided a great deal of the labor in the industrial midwest.

The only long lasting institution, sorta kinda/maybe, built on slavery that I can think of is Duke University and Hospital. And I think that is a stretch.

As I've shown above, I do not think this is true.

Did slaves, freed slaves and decendents help build this country? Yes. I never said they did not. But SLAVERY did not build this country. Slavery, well legal slavery, was gone by the time the US exploded economically. The growth in the US really kicked in after The Late Unpleasentness.

Right, but that really only point out the weakness of a concept like 'building this country'. It does not include a temporal context. But up until the time of the war, the slaves are responsible for a huge amount of the growth of this country. It really is of no benefit to argue 'how much' because it can't be easily quantified.

Dang it I tried to keep this short......

Later,
Dan

No need to keep things short. Good discussion is not necessarily served by brevity.

 

[milkman]

My grandpa (born in 1923) has talked about eating warm lard mixed with sorghum for breakfast as a child. He also recalls peeling potatoes in the spring and leaving a bit extra potato on the peel so they could plant the peelings.

Did that and it was way after the depression, just plain poor.

 

[riptides]

Bacon grease (cold of course) and salt on fresh rye.

I still eat it to this day.

 

[scott_vt]

Bacon grease (cold of course) and salt on fresh rye.

I still eat it to this day.

Good Afternoon Mike,
I like it too, but cant eat it around the wife, she gets upset too easily !

 

[MossRoad]

Bacon grease (cold of course) and salt on fresh rye.

I still eat it to this day.

Sorry dudes... just the thought of that makes me queezy!!! I mean, really.... who enjoys rye bread?

 

[scott_vt]

Sorry dudes... just the thought of that makes me queezy!!! I mean, really.... who enjoys rye bread?

Good Mornin Moss,
Heck I love rye bread !!! Its even better toasted !

 

[riptides]

Sorry dudes... just the thought of that makes me queezy!!! I mean, really.... who enjoys rye bread?

It is even better with a little butter under it!


But ya know what they say about butter.

 

[MossRoad]

My wife's grandparents and mother ate lardy bread well after the depression. Pretty nasty if you ask me. They had a little black cast iron pot on the back of the stove that they poured their bacon grease into. For breakfast, they'd take a piece of bread, open that pot, smear some bacon grease on it, fold it in half and eat it with a cup of coffee. GGEEEEEEEYUCK!!! BLECK!!!! AAAA!!! OOO!!! WHAAA!!! THHPPPPTTT!!!! THHPPPPTTT!!!! THHPPPPTTT!!!! THHPPPPTTT!!!! THHPPPPTTT!!!!THHPPPPTTT!!!! NO WAY JOSE'!!! Uh uh, not meee!!!!

 

[SnowRidge]

My wife's grandparents and mother ate lardy bread well after the depression. Pretty nasty if you ask me. They had a little black cast iron pot on the back of the stove that they poured their bacon grease into. For breakfast, they'd take a piece of bread, open that pot, smear some bacon grease on it, fold it in half and eat it with a cup of coffee. GGEEEEEEEYUCK!!! BLECK!!!! AAAA!!! OOO!!! WHAAA!!! THHPPPPTTT!!!! THHPPPPTTT!!!! THHPPPPTTT!!!! THHPPPPTTT!!!! THHPPPPTTT!!!!THHPPPPTTT!!!! NO WAY JOSE'!!! Uh uh, not meee!!!!

Cool! Bread and drippin's. Yum. Haven't had that for many, many years. My arteries just quiver at the thought.