At Home In The Woods

[dstig1]

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Some words of wisdom fr Fine Home Building magazine:


Owner-builders doing their own work are often tempted to move in to their house before the finish work is done, thinking it will be easier to do when it's close at hand. After a while, they don't notice the lack of trim, especially if there's furniture in the way, and it becomes harder and messier to set up the tools and work around the obstacles. It can be a strain on a marriage if the bathroom doors aren't hung after a few years of residence. I advise owner-builders to get everything done before they move in, and contractors to finish all work before they move on. They'll be glad they did.


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Caution - Diatribe Ahead!!!

I read that when it came out and got a good chuckle out of it. And it wasn't the opinion of FHB, it was the opinion of one author... There is some merit in what he says, but only as a point to stimulate some thinking. Realistically it isn't possible to do what he says as the timescale for one person working on a whole house is much longer than any typical crew. A contractor has separate whole crews of subs for each task. You as the Owner/Builder have...well, YOU. And maybe a friend/relative/helper from time to time.

But IMHO, the thing to take away from that article is that unfinished space can drag on. OK, use that point to your best advantage as you probably can't finish everything before move-in. So say the MBR is a big deal - will take a lot of time. Finish trimming a simpler guest room, then move into that and keep the MBR clear. Now you can focus and work on it without a full BR full of furniture in the way. The same goes for other rooms - you need a bathroom, just maybe not the MBath for move in. So finish off a key one ahead of time. Kitchens are tough to get around - pretty important to get that done as early as possible. A key thing to remember about construction order is that the farther along you get in the process, the slower it goes. Digging the foundation can often be a day or two process (depending on the lot, etc) whereas trimming out the house can easily take weeks, even for a pro crew in a detailed house.

The only other thing an Owner/Builder can do to help this out is to "time shift". During a typical contracted house, the builder will call in the subs as needed. Think about the cabinet guy - called in late in the process. But he and his crew can crank out a set of cabinets in a few weeks, whereas you as the O/B do not have that time at that stage of finish to drop everything and build cabinets for weeks. But if you plan well, you can build them even before you break ground (guess what I'm doing right now? ) I made sure our plans were largely flexible in the cabinet runs so that one end can float. Now if dimensions are off a bit, it will all still work just fine, and I managed to take cabinets out of the time line during the major construction.

If you are an O/B, there is no magic bullet. It all takes time, and lots of it. Think and work smart to take best advantage of what you can do, but be prepared for very extended timelines. When you look at the total man-hours in a house and then divided by a crew of one, well.....you get the picture.

And of course this is all totally OT as Obed is not an O/B but is only (and he says "only" like it is sooo trivial :laughing: ) acting as the GC on his house. That is a different set/subset of issues such as shorter timelines, but now having to get subs to do what you want - correctly...

My 2 centums
-Dave

 

[firefighter9208]

Caution - Diatribe Ahead!!!

I read that when it came out and got a good chuckle out of it. And it wasn't the opinion of FHB, it was the opinion of one author... There is some merit in what he says, but only as a point to stimulate some thinking. Realistically it isn't possible to do what he says as the timescale for one person working on a whole house is much longer than any typical crew. A contractor has separate whole crews of subs for each task. You as the Owner/Builder have...well, YOU. And maybe a friend/relative/helper from time to time.

But IMHO, the thing to take away from that article is that unfinished space can drag on. OK, use that point to your best advantage as you probably can't finish everything before move-in. So say the MBR is a big deal - will take a lot of time. Finish trimming a simpler guest room, then move into that and keep the MBR clear. Now you can focus and work on it without a full BR full of furniture in the way. The same goes for other rooms - you need a bathroom, just maybe not the MBath for move in. So finish off a key one ahead of time. Kitchens are tough to get around - pretty important to get that done as early as possible. A key thing to remember about construction order is that the farther along you get in the process, the slower it goes. Digging the foundation can often be a day or two process (depending on the lot, etc) whereas trimming out the house can easily take weeks, even for a pro crew in a detailed house.

The only other thing an Owner/Builder can do to help this out is to "time shift". During a typical contracted house, the builder will call in the subs as needed. Think about the cabinet guy - called in late in the process. But he and his crew can crank out a set of cabinets in a few weeks, whereas you as the O/B do not have that time at that stage of finish to drop everything and build cabinets for weeks. But if you plan well, you can build them even before you break ground (guess what I'm doing right now? ) I made sure our plans were largely flexible in the cabinet runs so that one end can float. Now if dimensions are off a bit, it will all still work just fine, and I managed to take cabinets out of the time line during the major construction.

If you are an O/B, there is no magic bullet. It all takes time, and lots of it. Think and work smart to take best advantage of what you can do, but be prepared for very extended timelines. When you look at the total man-hours in a house and then divided by a crew of one, well.....you get the picture.

And of course this is all totally OT as Obed is not an O/B but is only (and he says "only" like it is sooo trivial :laughing: ) acting as the GC on his house. That is a different set/subset of issues such as shorter timelines, but now having to get subs to do what you want - correctly...

My 2 centums
-Dave

Obed,

I have to agree with the original poster on moving into the house before it is finished. I was the GC on our house construction (along with my FIL who is a licensed GC) when we built in 2001.

There were little things that we didn't finish. Like the upstairs bathroom. I finally hung that light last winter (2009). And the trim around the upstairs windows. I installed it last summer (2010), but haven't gotten around to caulking it or painting it.

There is always something else that I would rather do. Take it from me, if you don't want the wife nagging at you to "finish that bathroom" or saying, "it sure would be nice if you could hang those blinds, but you can't because you haven't painted the trim yet......" Go ahead and finish everything before moving in. Then you'll have a reason to finish it.

As far as landscaping.... To satisfy the bank we had to have it finished. I threw down some grass seed and straw. They didn't require plants, but many do. They want the house where they can sell it if you foreclose. When we had our final inspection (bank) we locked the doors and left. The guy showed up and called me to get into the house. I told him that I had to leave for work, but could reschedule. He looked through the windows (downstairs) and was satisfied. If he had seen that we didn't have everything finished upstairs we would have had to finish it.

Just some thoughts.......

Chris

 

[srs]

Obed, another suggestion. I remember you had a bunch of broken bricks left over, not sure what you did with it but placing that material inside your porch would be a good way to dispose of it. It makes a great fill material especially if you have some sand left over to fill the voids. A lot better (in my opinion) then dirt, which will settle some. And I'm sure you know to avoid termites no pieces of scrap wood in there.

 

[Obed]

Here's a late change the wife made. If you look up in ceiling trusses, you can see the duct for the range hood that vents to the outside. Originally, it was planned that the vertical portion of the duct that runs from the range vent to the ceiling trusses would pass through the cabinets over the range hood. Well, the wife decided she wanted to reclaim for kitchen storage use the cabinet space above the range hood. So instead of running through the cabinets, the vertical portion of the duct will run through this newly framed duct space in the garage. This picture shows the same area from the kitchen side of the wall.

 

[Obed]

Drywall got delivered yesterday. Due to the corrosive Chinese drywall problems, we got a signed statement from our drywall supplier that the drywall was not made in China. The drywall came in 12 foot long sheets. The large flatbed truck that delivered the materials is pretty impressive with the attached crane they use to unload the drywall.

Today the drywall workers installed all the drywall. I'll have to post pictures later. Almost all the drywall pieces are attached using only screws; very few pieces have any nails in them. Tomorrow they start mudding. When I got home tonight, I picked up screws and then sprinkled sweeping compound on the floor in all the rooms and closets to help control the dust when the drywall guys start sanding the joints.

 

[Obed]

Electrical Snaffu
Last night we made last minute preparations for the drywall installation. I didn't like the way the wiring ran in front of the horizontal piece of blocking. The wire would be too close to the drywall and could be punctured if anything (picture frame, calendar, etc.) were to be nailed to that wall. Note: The blocking was added by the framer after the wiring had been run. So I re-routed the wiring behind the blocking.

While re-routing the wiring, I looked up in the ceiling and noticed a piece of electrical tape wrapped around a cable. I get suspicious anytime I see electrical tape on a piece of cable. So I thought I better have a look and find out why the cable had electrical tape on it. I removed the electrical tape and saw that the yellow outer sheathing had a gash in it.

I then observed that the insulation around the white wire was mangled for about an inch leaving the wire completely exposed. It also looked like the red wire's insulation had a nick in it. Apparently, the framers had saw-zawed the wire when they built the back porch. They covered the outer sheathing with electrical tape but did nothing to keep the damaged wires inside from shorting. This band-aid had the potential to burn down our house!

I fixed the cable by cutting it and rewiring it with wire nuts inside a junction box. Last night was the last chance I could have seen this problem because drywall covered it today. I've extremely thankful that I saw this issue.

 

[Obed]

Obed, another suggestion. I remember you had a bunch of broken bricks left over, not sure what you did with it but placing that material inside your porch would be a good way to dispose of it. It makes a great fill material especially if you have some sand left over to fill the voids. A lot better (in my opinion) then dirt, which will settle some. And I'm sure you know to avoid termites no pieces of scrap wood in there.

Stanley,
We still have a few piles of brick we could use as fill material. I have dumped most of the scrap brick below our driveway culvert to use as rip-rap. Yes, we have considered using some scrap brick as fill under the front porch concrete. My only concern in doing so is getting the brick to pack well so the concrete has a good base below it. I have an area about 2 feet deep that I need to fill. I have a big pile of gravel I can use; I hadn't thought about using the left-over sand but that's a great idea. We'll rent a machine to pack the fill under the front porch concrete regardless of what fill material we use. Thanks for the suggestions.

Obed

 

[Obed]

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Some words of wisdom fr Fine Home Building magazine:

Owner-builders doing their own work are often tempted to move in to their house before the finish work is done, thinking it will be easier to do when it's close at hand. After a while, they don't notice the lack of trim, especially if there's furniture in the way, and it becomes harder and messier to set up the tools and work around the obstacles. It can be a strain on a marriage if the bathroom doors aren't hung after a few years of residence. I advise owner-builders to get everything done before they move in, and contractors to finish all work before they move on. They'll be glad they did.

Diatribe 2
I've pondered some how to respond to the magazine quotation. Please note that I haven't read the article so my response is in regard to only the provided quotation.

The main floor which contains all our living areas will be very close to being finished when we move in. We probably won't install any crown moulding initially; that's something I can tinker around with myself when I feel like doing it. I will add some Cat 6 network wiring after we are in the house and play around with some home automation gadgets. The front porch and/or basement porches might not be finished when we move in. Landscaping and a walkway to the front door will come later. But everything else will be finished. The basement will remain unfinished until we can finish it with cash. We don't intend to ever finish the upstairs unless we decide the sell the house at some point.

That being said, our reasons for finishing the house before moving in have little or nothing to do with my impression of the intentions of the article. Yes, moving into a house that is still a "project" is extremely inconvenient. We have the ability to finish the house before moving in so that's the way we are doing it. Our initial intent was to get the house "in the dry", live in the camper onsite, and slowly finish the rest of the house in about 3 years after getting it in the dry. Then the wife got wonderfully pregnant and our plans drastically changed.

Our little girl is moving around on her own now. She can move around the floor using her elbows and feet. She'll be completely crawling in a few weeks, maybe days. We are more than ready to get out of the camper after 13+ years in it.

Now for my soapbox...

It can be a strain on a marriage if the bathroom doors aren't hung after a few years of residence.

Do you want to know what's more of a strain? How about an interest only 1st mortgage, a 2nd mortgage, and owing more on your house than it's worth after the real estate market tanked. If you are married to a person who will make your life miserable because the baseboards are not yet installed, you have much bigger issues than a partially finished house.

My impression is that the author is not a big promoter of living a debt free lifestyle.

Our society is addicted to debt, so addicted that many people don't even consider a mortgage to be debt. They think they are out of debt if they pay off their credit cards. The county building inspectors won't let you live in your house and finish it a little at a time. You are expected to build the house in a short amount of time or you will run into all kinds of roadblocks imposed upon you by the inspection beaurocrats. Thus, our municpalities encourage/force many people to go into debt to build a house. They put up obstacles that impede the homeowner from slowly building a house with cash and paying as they go.

My grandfather built his house on the farm slowly, when my dad was a boy. They lived in the house while they finished it a little bit at a time. They ended up with a beautiful house.

While it's inconvenient to "finish" a house while living in it, that method can be one of the most practical and responsible ways to build a house. That's the way most people used to build their houses before we got so addicted to debt. Unlike the author, I have great respect for people who build their houses using cash by paying for things when they save up the money and would recommend that route to anyone who can swing it.

Just my opinion. Others are free to have their opinions too.

Obed

 

[dstig1]

Obed, you and I think at least a bit alike.:thumbsup: I was brought up by Depression Era parents and debt was a thing to be avoided. I am not as severe as they were about it as I am now living in a major metro area, and that makes it a very difficult thing to do (houses are pricey..) but we are actually debt free now - totally.

Marital harmony is another whole can o' worms. You need to both be on the same page for living this way. I bought a book several years back that was titled "Homebuilding - Debt Free". The first entire chapter was basically "are you SURE you want to do this? Does your family want to? It ain't easy ya know! Really not easy! Like hard. Not Easy. Did I mention it was hard? Really, it is." Lots of good lessons in there. So the key point is you all need to understand what you are getting into and all be on the same wavelength.

One last point that is a bit OT - Owner-Builders are a subset of people who do things themselves, and I'd say the extreme subset. Being your own GC is a tough enough project, but building it yourself adds a lot more time and stress to the project. Pundits saying things like "finish everything before moving in" are probably not the type who really get into this as that just isn't a realistic proposition unless you are independently wealthy and thus have infinite time and money for the project. You can't be an O/B just because you want to save money. You will quickly find the money isn't worth it. You do this because you love it, and yeah, you will save some money in the end, but you are doing it mainly because you love it.

I've been prepping my lot and I guess I need to start my own thread rather than keep hijacking yours... :ashamed: But yeah - we have years to go...

-Dave

 

[dave1949]

One last point that is a bit OT - Owner-Builders are a subset of people who do things themselves, and I'd say the extreme subset. Being your own GC is a tough enough project, but building it yourself adds a lot more time and stress to the project. Pundits saying things like "finish everything before moving in" are probably not the type who really get into this as that just isn't a realistic proposition unless you are independently wealthy and thus have infinite time and money for the project. You can't be an O/B just because you want to save money. You will quickly find the money isn't worth it. You do this because you love it, and yeah, you will save some money in the end, but you are doing it mainly because you love it.

-Dave

Very good advice there. Also, if you are going to be an O/B, spend the money on the tools that will make the job less onerous.

My take on debt is it should be used in limited amounts on things that truly make a significant difference in your lives. Our first mortgage debt was to buy a rural 1-1/2 acre lot with a very used mobile home on it. Our first child was 2 years old and we were living in an upstairs apartment with a postage stamp yard. We wanted some elbow room and a better place for a child to grow up. I have never regretted taking on that debt although it was 'optional'.

Four years and another child later, the old trailer was getting pretty cramped and not improving with age We began building a house behind the trailer, had to borrow some money to do that, $17,500 as I recall. The rest came from savings and month to month income. Except for having the drywall hung, not finished, and a chimney built by a mason, we did the rest ourselves. Friends pitched in here and there. It was a long and sometimes not so fun process. Truthfully, I was sick of it long before it was done. But, to put a decent roof over our heads, it needed doing. It was the only way we could afford a home. So, I don't regret that either. Taking on the debt made it possible to build 2 or 3 years earlier. I don't think it was a bad trade-off. It certainly wouldn't have been financially smart to begin dumping money into old mobile home repairs.

Debt for new or expensive cars/trucks, extravagant homes, TV's, gadgets or expensive trips is the type that will NOT make a significant difference in your life; they don't fulfill a basic need such as shelter; just wants. I'll make an exemption for shiny new tractors :laughing:

My .02.
Dave.