Erratic Hydraulics

[wdchyd]

Has anybody here mentioned the possibility of your PB and Return lines are mixed up..??....Did they give you the right plug for the PB..??

 

[Gary Sweat]

Gary,

Just trying to catchup on this thread....Read it a couple of times and confused.......What is the original problem?..

Is it the dump cyls overrunning the pump gpm's?....

There were actually two issues going on. One was the dump cycle that I am working on correcting (still not sure how to yet) and the other is the loader does not seem to increase speed when the engine rpm is increased.

Right now I am trying to understand why the loader will not operate any faster when I run the rpm's up. Not sure if I have a problem or how to find out why it's staying the same speed. From what I have read, I should see faster movement in the loader and bucket with increased engine speed but I don't. Seems to operate at the same speed regardless of rpm's.

 

[Gary Sweat]

Has anybody here mentioned the possibility of your PB and Return lines are mixed up..??....Did they give you the right plug for the PB..??

PB and return lines are hooked up correctly. I say this based on the CV port markings and watching the gauge pressure when operating it. The PB adapter fit tightly in the hole and is the one that goes with that valve.

I will take the cap off of the return line adapter and see if any oil is flowing when the CV is in the center position, as I understand it, there should not be any oil moving through the line until I move the joystick. If there is, then that might be my problem.

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[J_J]

Gary Sweat: Quote

I can use the 3pt and loader only if I barely open the loader valve and then both move slow. Either one by itself will move quicker. You had told me a while back that my pump couldn't support both.

I looked back and could not find where I said that. What I may have said was that if your FEL valve was using all the pump flow to operate the cyl, then for the time the cyl are operating, there will be no flow left for the 3pt. If you only use some of the total flow for the FEL, then some is available for the 3pt. The first valve upstream has priority, and will cut off or reduce the hyd flow past the first spool.

Have you played with the position of the 3pt lever such as up all the way, or down all the way, or left in the middle of travel, when using the FEL.

The flow meter with pressure gage will show the flow at any rpm, and the pressure .

 

[wdchyd]

PB and return lines are hooked up correctly. I say this based on the CV port markings and watching the gauge pressure when operating it. The PB adapter fit tightly in the hole and is the one that goes with that valve.

I'm just not that familiar with that brand of valve.....the ones I use have the PB sleeve (not plug) inline with the central pressure core and bypass the downstream flow to the 3PH (or whatever the next valve is).......You have the fitting that is inline with the pressure core going to the return to tank and the fitting that is inline with the return core of the valve is going to the 3ph....Not saying it's wrong, just saying it's different.....

I'd be suspicious....

 

[J_J]

If PB in installed and is the correct sleeve, then the only fluid coming out the return port is the expended fluid from the cyl. The normal flow would be through the valve and out the PB port. If the FEL arms are raised up, and the valve or spool is leaking, then you may see a little fluid coming out the return port with all levers in neutral.

 

[wdchyd]

The flow meter with pressure gage will show the flow at any rpm, and the pressure .

It does take the guesswork out of it.....but then again I'm spoiled and have several at my beckon call...........Too bad you're so far away in OK....

 

[wdchyd]

If PB in installed and is the correct sleeve

Maybe he has a "Closed Center Plug" installed and not a "Power Beyond Sleeve".....See Picture...!!

 

[J_J]

I'm just not that familiar with that brand of valve.....the ones I use have the PB plug inline with the central pressure core and bypass the downstream flow to the 3PH (or whatever the next valve is).......You have the fitting that is inline with the pressure core going to the return to tank and the fitting that is inline with the return core of the valve is going to the 3ph....Not saying it's wrong, just saying it's different.....

I'd be suspicious....

Look at that picture of the valve again, the PB sleeve and hose is connected to the straight through path through the valve. The return is using the top outlet . There is another return outlet on the side by the PB. Now, if the hoses are correct.

If the PB and return hoses were connected wrong, then the flow would pass through the PB port and out the return hose to tank, and the 3pt would not work.

If the 3pt works correctly and will kick in the relief valve, then we can assume it is working correctly.

Where is the relief valve on this valve. It is usually close to the pressure port.

 

[Gary Sweat]

Look at that picture of the valve again, the PB sleeve and hose is connected to the straight through path through the valve. The return is using the top outlet . There is another return outlet on the side by the PB. Now, if the hoses are correct.

If the PB and return hoses were connected wrong, then the flow would pass through the PB port and out the return hose to tank, and the 3pt would not work.

If the 3pt works correctly and will kick in the relief valve, then we can assume it is working correctly.

Where is the relief valve on this valve. It is usually close to the pressure port.

The relief valve is on the input side. When I use the 3pt all the way up I hear a relief kick in and the gauge pressure will remain around 850psi. I don't know if that is because the PRV in the 3pt is kicking in or what. The loader valve is set to 1500psi and will kick in the minute the cylinders fully extend.

When I said you had told me that the pump couldn't support both the loader and the 3pt is was because of what you had said about not having enough flow to work both. Didn't mean to misquote you, I just took what you said to indicate that was the issue.

 

[Gary Sweat]

[/QUOTE]Have you played with the position of the 3pt lever such as up all the way, or down all the way, or left in the middle of travel, when using the FEL.

The flow meter with pressure gage will show the flow at any rpm, and the pressure .[/QUOTE]

I usually have the 3pt all the way up when using the loader. I have noticed on the gauge that if I don't back off the 3pt lever just a little the gauge shows around 850psi steady. If I back the lever off just a little when the 3pt is raised, the gauge drops to zero and stays there until the 3pt creeps down and then I see pressure building again on the gauge. I don't know if this is normal or an indication something is not right.

 

[wdchyd]

Gary, You summed it up....."It's never as simple as it seems" .....:laughing:

 

[J_J]

That 3pt pressure appears to be the relief pressure on the 3pt system, and if the 3pt lever is left up, then any pressure above that will bleed off to the tank. If that lever is up, that is putting back pressure back to the FEL valve and reducing the total pressure by half. I think I would boost that FEL relief pressure back to the spec, about 50 to 100 psi below the pump pressure.

Someone mentioned an unloader valve in the 3pt. You might check further on that also.

 

[wdchyd]

Look at that picture of the valve again, the PB sleeve and hose is connected to the straight through path through the valve. The return is using the top outlet

This is where I'm not seeing that.....The PB (plug shown) is inline with the center power core but the PB hose connection to 3ph is not (it's showing the return to tank inline with the power core)......

 

[J_J]

In this picture, I see the steel line attached to the PB sleeve, the return is the 90 degree fitting to the right. The side return port is not used. Both are using steel lines.

 

[J_J]

Maybe you did this, but did you measure the time to lift FEL arms to the max at idle and at max rpm? There should be some difference.

 

[J_J]

Cylinder Speed

Bore Size 2 inches
Rod Diameter 1 inches
Pump Flow 1 GPM

Extension Speed 1.2 inches per second
Retraction Speed 1.6 inches per se


Cylinder Speed

Bore Size 2 inches
Rod Diameter 1 inches
Pump Flow 4 GPM

Extension Speed 4.9 inches per second
Retraction Speed 6.5 inches per second

 

[Gary Sweat]

Maybe you did this, but did you measure the time to lift FEL arms to the max at idle and at max rpm? There should be some difference.

I've got to finish some welding on my box blade to make it match the quick hitch today and I will get the tractor out of the garage and fire it up. The box blade is on the floor behind the tractor right now and the fumes get a little bit much if I run the tractor in the garage. It's a little cold today to keep the doors open.

I will let you know what the times are.

 

[wdchyd]

?? Which are you referring to as PB sleeve.?? the upper left looks like an adapter fitting to me....

 

[Gary Sweat]

In this picture, I see the steel line attached to the PB sleeve, the return is the 90 degree fitting to the right. The side return port is not used. Both are using steel lines.

That is correct. The PB port comes straight out of the valve side and I used the top return port hole and plugged the side return port hole. The side hole would not clear the PB 90degree fitting.

This valve has an internal connection between the PB port and the tank return port unless you install the PB adapter (which it has). Then the connection between the two ports is sealed off.