Millermatic 180 vs I-mig 200

[Mark @ Everlast]

And Everlast...
We can go tit for tat. You can find anything you want to compare, just what you want to make things look your way. I was responding to the off track question of the components we used.
Take for instance Lincolns comparison to Miller, and the mention of wood parts, poor cabling, etc in the Synchrowave. Both are fine machines that I have used and can't find any fault with either as far as durability or operation. (except for their low duty cycles and power thirst).
http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/literature/e3372.pdf

Edit: left out link.

 

[Shield Arc]

So Mark while you're in the explaining mode, why don't you explain to me and the naysayers why my Everlast PowerArc 200, (cost $349.99) welds better, (SMAW) than my Miller Dynasty 300, (cost $6,000.00+)? If the Dynasty was just a stick machine, boy wouldn't I have egg on my face! :laughing:

 

[gwdixon]

C'mon guys. Nobody is going to convince anyone about anything.

Live and let live.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

:laughing:

Well,
I guess the topic is now successfully off track. My apologies to all. But while the derailment has been entertaining for some, an intent for others, and generally a wild goose chase, maybe we can lift the locomotive back on the track.

 

[Chilly807]

As long as we're back on the rails.. If I had to buy a new MIG tomorrow, I still don't know what I'd buy. It would be middle of the line price-wise, and hopefully the same as far as quality goes. Hard to justify buying top-end gear for a weekend welder.

My 180 Millermatic was free, thanks to Miller (long story). With the spool gun included it would beat the good out of $1500 Cdn to buy today I think.

I'm going to play with settings and wire brands to reduce spatter if I can, and enjoy the pretty Blue paint..:laughing:

In the end we need to agree to disagree on brands, I think. It's like Kubota and Deere.

Sean

 

[4shorts]

Well what about canada? I see nothing about CSA approval on Everlastwelders.ca.

CSA approval is required on items sold in canada. Since Everlastwelders.ca is in Burlington, why dont we see what the Electrical safety authority has to say about that? Recognized Certification Marks for Electrical Products in Ontario You'll notice CE isnt there. CE is a lower standard than CSA or UL as you know. Plus theres that whole ability to self certify thing too.

I guess not submitting your machines for approval is another way to have lower prices to compete with the big brands that DO meet approval?

troutsqueezer: i have to agree there. If i opened up a PC and saw that.....

Good observation. My personal choice is Miller because I have a great local rep and It's a proven product for me at least. Out of all the machines I've owned that were Millers I've never had to have one warranty repair on a Miller. Yes they get used. My Miller Dynasty 200 DX got 2300 hours on it and it's still working and looking brand new. You get what you pay for in this world. I like the fact that it's single or three phase and 115 or 230 volt. I put the Miller MVP plug system on my Dynasty and I can switch back and forth in a few seconds. I doubt Everlast is that advanced or be this reliable.
This machine has paid for it's self many times over and if I needed another inverter based machine Id pick up the phone and order another one just like it.

For those not familiar with Millers MVP system check out the video:

YouTube - Miller Feature - Multi-Voltage Plug (MVP)

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

The 250 EX is single phase or 3 phase and maintains a duty cycle of 60% in both single and three phase... Several of our plasma cutters are 110V/220V. Our I tig is as well. The migs will be dual voltage as well soon. No, the technology isn't a problem. But we choose what market we want our units to hit and aim the voltage for it.

 

[lostcause]

i think the miller 211 is the match on paper for the everlast i-mig 200. the miller 180 is a slightly lower powered unit.

as you have seen, there is a bit of a debate over quality and durability with anything but the major brands here. in all honesty, it's probably going to be hard to tell how that plays out until a lot of units have been in customer's hands for a few years. in many cases, foreign built electronics are foreign built electronics, no matter who has their name on the final product, but there can always be exceptions. i've owned two sharp lcd tv's for about three years. i was recently in the market for a very inexpensive lcd so i bought an element tv, and when i took it out of the box i found that it instantly trips breakers when hooked up. granted, any brand can have the occasional bad product, but look at the odds here when i bought a lesser brand name.

i know that the everlast units use a lot of industry standard parts, but for the homeowner/weekend warrior there is certainly a perk to having easy part and consumable availability. i'm not going to knock everlast here, but it's a plus for the red and blue fans that you can get a lot of parts for the smaller units at your local big box store. walmart, hd, and lowe's carry some lincoln components, and tractor supply has some miller/hobart stuff. i went to tractor supply and picked up a flux core nozzle for my 211 when it arrived. add this to the fact that ebay lists tons of drive rolls, liners, and such then there's certainly no issue getting anything you need in a hurry for the major brands. i have no personal experience with everlast, but i have read where everlast parts have been backordered. again, this can happen with any brand, but with a large name with a national dealer network, you're less likely to see it.

the same goes for unit availability. about the time i was ready to buy a welder, the everlast unit i was looking at ended up being out of stock for a while. in a way, this is good, because they must be turning heads and selling units. then again it was bad because i couldn't have one. i ended up buying the 211 and the spool gun for it. i paid a total of $1040, including shipping. the price i got earlier this year on the everlast unit with spool gun was $1049. the spool gun everlast uses with the 200 is a heavier (more expensive) gun that what miller uses with the 211. i'm sure it might also be possible to work out a little extra discount on the everlast price. for me there was no price difference and i had a local place to purchase the miller, so it was a no-brainer.

at some time in the future when you can go to any welding supply shop and ask for a part for an everlast, and they can easily find and provide you with the part, just as if it were a lincoln or miller, that will be the time when everlast is on the same playing field as the other brands. if they can hold a considerable price edge at that time, then they will really be a contender. until then you have not much more than a paper comparison. even if the product is equal or better, there are other factors that will keep people from converting. some are just perception, and others are tangible factors. until then there are no arguments that will satisfy all the people. every new car manufacturer on the scene over the last 50 years has had to suffer through the same trials - time and quality. there are no words that will replace this.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Lost,
The parts you mentioned being available off the shelf are consumables. I would be remiss if I did not point out that one cannot walk into lowe's or home depot and get parts. Our "parts" for equivalent products at the box stores are available locally just about anywhere there is a welding supply store. The only exception is the HF plasma cutters and they are available at multiple points online. The PowerPlasma 50, our most popular seller has cons available almost anywhere. Tig torch parts are a match for any weldcraft,ck, or other standard torch part. In fact every consumable for a tig torch or Mig torch I have ever needed, I went down to the LWS and pulled it off the shelf. If I go a little further to the next town (I live in a small town) I can buy plasma cons for the PowerPlasma 50. But, I have gone into the lws company in the next town, from where I purchased my largest MIG and they have been out of stock on cons for my unit for 6 months, saying they don't have enough to make a minimum order. I have also been told it was a 4 week delay to get my parts for my Lincoln engine drive.

 

[troutsqueezer]

So Mark while you're in the explaining mode, why don't you explain to me and the naysayers why my Everlast PowerArc 200, (cost $349.99) welds better, (SMAW) than my Miller Dynasty 300, (cost $6,000.00+)? If the Dynasty was just a stick machine, boy wouldn't I have egg on my face! :laughing:

It's gotta be those jerry-rigged capacitor-on-capacitors and the solder blobs all over the legs on the IC's and resistors. :laughing:

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Some of the circuits on some models are built by hand until they are incorporated into a completely new board. But there are no issues with failures or problems. We redesigned the internals of the units to lighten them up by simplifying and changing to some new circuitry. We have done this and increased performance, and componentized the system by making more things plug and play and modular, in preparation for some changes to come such as full cnc readiness etc. Eventually when the transition is completed, they will be added and built by machine. As I posted the other pictures of other products, they are up to date, machine built, potted and coated fully.

 

[crazyal]

i know that the everlast units use a lot of industry standard parts, but for the homeowner/weekend warrior there is certainly a perk to having easy part and consumable availability. i'm not going to knock everlast here, but it's a plus for the red and blue fans that you can get a lot of parts for the smaller units at your local big box store. walmart, hd, and lowe's carry some lincoln components, and tractor supply has some miller/hobart stuff. i went to tractor supply and picked up a flux core nozzle for my 211 when it arrived. add this to the fact that ebay lists tons of drive rolls, liners, and such then there's certainly no issue getting anything you need in a hurry for the major brands. i have no personal experience with everlast, but i have read where everlast parts have been backordered. again, this can happen with any brand, but with a large name with a national dealer network, you're less likely to see it.

What your missing is for the weekend warrior the choice isn't do I save a few bucks or do I buy one of the big brands. It's more a case of I just can't justify spending the money that it costs to buy a welder from one of the big name brands. I know I never would have spent $2400 for a HyperTherm plasma cutter. Sure I would like to have a large dealer network so I could jump in the car and buy parts but all that stuff costs money.

 

[lostcause]

What your missing is for the weekend warrior the choice isn't do I save a few bucks or do I buy one of the big brands. It's more a case of I just can't justify spending the money that it costs to buy a welder from one of the big name brands. I know I never would have spent $2400 for a HyperTherm plasma cutter. Sure I would like to have a large dealer network so I could jump in the car and buy parts but all that stuff costs money.

i understand the cost difference can be staggering, especially as you go with bigger sizes. i looked at plasma cutters earlier this year, but didn't end up buying one - yet. the hypertherm 45 was around $1400 then, and with the powerplasma 50 at $800, it would be a hard thing to swallow a $600 difference. if you're looking at a $2400 hypertherm, i assume you're looking at the 1000, and the closest everlast ones are $900-$1000. you're looking at nearly $1500 more, so yes, it is a lot to swallow for the weekend warrior.

as i said in my post, in june, mark quoted me $1049 for the i-mig 200 and the matching spool gun. i ended up getting the miller 211 and spool gun for $1040 a month and a half later. maybe at that time there would have been a better deal on the everlast, but i am pretty sure it wouldn't have been enough to make it worth gambling on. at the time i end up buying a plasma cutter there's a much better chance i may end up going with an everlast. the cost difference on them is much higher than the welder i bought.

i'm not saying that there is anything wrong with everlast gear, i'm just saying that it's going to be some time before the masses will place any validity on claims that they are equal or better to the industry standards. it's a fact of life - even if they are in fact as good or better, they have to pay their dues before being recognized. also, like it or not, until the time they have a presence in the retail world that the masses can see, they will have a hard time validating a lot of those claims. let's face it, were it not for mark being here, there are a lot of you who would not have looked at everlast.

 

[crazyal]

I set the minimum thickness steel I wanted to cut and then looked at what could cut it. The HyperTherm 65 was the size that was listed that could cut it. The price was over $2400. I ended up getting an Everlast PP60, just recently Mark was selling them for $765 shipped ($899 with a 15% off).

At first I wasn't sure about it because they weren't name brand but after doing some searching and watching some videos of it cutting I decided to give it a try. I did see people using the HT 45 cutting beyond what it was rated for that did meet my requirements but it was about $650 more than I paid.

I don't think I would have spent $1000 on a plasma cutter. I just don't have the uses so it's not like HyperTherm (or any other big name brand) lost the business. I see Jim post here every so often about how much better the tech is on their units. I've never said it to him but if they could come up with a value line, maybe with less bells and not the latest tech and get close to Everlast I may have decided differently.

If you can get a Miller for the same cost as the Everlast I would go with the Miller without thinking twice, before I bought my PP60. Now I'm not so sure. My Lincoln 255 has a problem they never could fix. The fan is only suppose to come on when the temp reaches a set point and then shut off when it cools off. It comes on as soon as you strike an arc and stays on until you shut the power off. Not a big deal but it's a giant name brand and they never got it fixed.

 

[Chilly807]

In my opinion, Lincoln/Miller/ESAB/HyperTherm etc are building machines as good as they have to be to keep their market share.

It's a case of demographics, like any marketing strategy. Miller et al pay someone well to determine who's buying their welders, then decide how much they can/want to charge for those machines. If the majority of buyers in the "consumer" market, which is the one we're discussing here, are mid-forties with at least some disposable income, they can afford to pay more for their weekend warrior tools. They like pro-quality gear, but most won't quite pay for the jump to true commercial quality.

So, Miller (for example) sells their Millermatic line-up as being the little brothers to their pro equipment, backed by the Miller name and product support. They use the same blue paint, so Joe Consumer smiles whenever he walks into his garage.

Like someone said earlier, you won't find many 180's or 211's on job sites. I consider them high-end consumer welders for the weekend warrior crowd, myself included. You're paying more for the name and local customer support, plus a nationwide dealer network.

I do think their build quality is above average, as are the Lincoln Power Migs that are sold by welding supply shops. The Home Desperation , Canadian Tire, Walmart versions are usually a bit lower cost with less features and maybe a few corners cut where they can be to get the price down.

Same marketing strategy applies. The buyer that decides he wants a "decent MIG welder" to use on weekends and goes into the dealership welding supply shop knows he may pay a premium there, he who needs one to "weld the quarter panels up on the ol' lady's Buick" will go to the box store.

Where Everlast fits into the picture I don't really know. The price is certainly attractive. To me a lot depends on whether the price was achieved through cheaper labour and parts or by a reduced profit margin to establish a market share. Either is possible, it's not fair to Mark or anybody else for me to speculate without knowing for sure.

Sean