$3.37 Gas & $3.58 Diesel - Thrilled.

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   / $3.37 Gas & $3.58 Diesel - Thrilled. #291  
Rob-D Natural Gas is by far the most environmentally friendly alternative in the fossil fuel game. In full disclosure, yes! that's my game! (See profile). 'Gas-Land' trashed a lot of, what could have been a significant financial benefit for the residents, and the gas field workers, along with reducing our dependence on foreign oil. This "Just say No", or "Nimby" attitude has got to reach a moderate compromise, or we're just 'tightining the hand-cuffs' on our own energy independence. The statements made are solely mine as a home contributor, and are not to be attributed to my employer. ~"Scotty"

America's Leading Source of Information About Natural Gas - America's Natural Gas Alliance

It's not just the movie, I've heard some real horror stories. It's what they pump into the ground to replace the void.

The other thing is that you can still get drilled laterally if you opt out but your neighbor doesn't. They were going to do it up here but it got blocked I believe.

Here's the problem, we're in a historical transition at this time. When whale oil became scarce and costly new energy sources started to emerge to light the night.
Today we've all been living on this cheap, until now, highly concentrated abundant energy source that is turning out to be a big problem just like whale oil did.
There aren't any silver bullets or quick fixes but we have to be very careful about what we do and how we go about replacing this energy that fueled the Industrial Revolution.
Right now there are new solar panels and technologies coming out everyday and before long you'll be able to go into Home Depot and buy a system that will run most of your needs.

I don't know how many of you remember when TV Dishes first came out. They were 12' across and cost several grand. Well new technologies kept increasing the power satellites put out and now we have these small dishes hanging on our homes with out all the electronics and some guy taking two days to install them. Those satellites work from PV. That's what is going to happen here. PV grid tie systems are a snap to put in. I'm giving free advice to the people in my area who see my panels and are starting to add up the future costs of running and heating their homes. Panels keep getting more dense and the light spectrum they absorb is getting greater. The sun has a tremendous amount of energy. China is going full out for solar now and Europe has been working with solar as well.
The trouble here is that we've had so many raw resources for so long that we got spoiled and don't want to give an inch but we have to at this point.

Rob
 
   / $3.37 Gas & $3.58 Diesel - Thrilled. #292  
Rob-Your points are well taken, I just think that there a lot of people out there that think 'negative-thoughts' on my field of work, because of : Michael Moore/Al Gore/Gasland types of productions.........! I appreciate your feedback and agree that Solar is 'interesting', but I don't think we're there yet! It certainly would be great to drive to work, with only a solar-panel on the roof of my car! Again, thanks for this civil exchange! ~"Scotty"
 
   / $3.37 Gas & $3.58 Diesel - Thrilled. #293  
I would like to point out few things:
1.) In historical context 100 years in history of a country means very little. So NG abundance is only relative. One day it will be gone too. Increased supply will help to our generation but might not to our children.
2.) The time when there will not be cheap oil or NG is coming faster than most people think. I will bet that we will see gasoline at $15 - $20/gal in todays money before I kick the bucket (I am 63).
3.) Cost of electricity and energies in general will significantly increase in the future.
4.) Can we afford it? It all boils down to where we stand in productivity relative to other nations. In other words if we produce goods with high value versus production cost (supporting good wages) we will be able to afford expensive energy. Now ask yourself a question what will happen when China starts making quality goods. It will happen sooner than most people think. China pumps a lot of money in education, basic research and generally in modernisation etc. What do we do? Screw education, infrastructure, basic research or modenisation etc. We want low taxes.

I agree with Rob D that harnessing non-traditional energy is way to go but currently not all people have the space and or resources to do it. I wish the government incentives were structured such a way that it would promote lower cost of energy gathering equipment. So far the effect is opposite. The manufacturers of equipment can keep the price up because of government subsidies. In example compare complexity of average car with complexity of a wind turbine. Average car is made out of thousands parts while wind generator is made from less than hundred. Then why it cost several times more? I figured that I would need about 20 kW (estimated energy production38000 kWh/year) wind generator to run my house of grid. It cost about $70000. If I have electric car I would need estimated 50 kW or more unit (producing 96000 kWh/year). Unless I made it by myself there is no way it would be economically viable undertaking.
 
   / $3.37 Gas & $3.58 Diesel - Thrilled. #294  
I would like to point out few things:
1.) In historical context 100 years in history of a country means very little. So NG abundance is only relative. One day it will be gone too. Increased supply will help to our generation but might not to our children.
2.) The time when there will not be cheap oil or NG is coming faster than most people think. I will bet that we will see gasoline at $15 - $20/gal in todays money before I kick the bucket (I am 63).
3.) Cost of electricity and energies in general will significantly increase in the future.
4.) Can we afford it? It all boils down to where we stand in productivity relative to other nations. In other words if we produce goods with high value versus production cost (supporting good wages) we will be able to afford expensive energy. Now ask yourself a question what will happen when China starts making quality goods. It will happen sooner than most people think. China pumps a lot of money in education, basic research and generally in modernisation etc. What do we do? Screw education, infrastructure, basic research or modenisation etc. We want low taxes.

I agree with Rob D that harnessing non-traditional energy is way to go but currently not all people have the space and or resources to do it. I wish the government incentives were structured such a way that it would promote lower cost of energy gathering equipment. So far the effect is opposite. The manufacturers of equipment can keep the price up because of government subsidies. In example compare complexity of average car with complexity of a wind turbine. Average car is made out of thousands parts while wind generator is made from less than hundred. Then why it cost several times more? I figured that I would need about 20 kW (estimated energy production38000 kWh/year) wind generator to run my house of grid. It cost about $70000. If I have electric car I would need estimated 50 kW or more unit (producing 96000 kWh/year). Unless I made it by myself there is no way it would be economically viable undertaking.

Ladia,
Thanks for the comments.
38000 KWh equates to over 3 million watts/month. That's a lot of power. Right now we live on less than 400 KWh/month not counting heating the house. When the Geo goes in that will pump up but the intertie will balance it out.
I went around the house and looked at everything that uses power, freezers that store grains and even the water filtration system.

Tomorrow the very fragile grid could shut down. What's our options? Because This is how we have to confront the problem. What if? What would I do if tomorrow the government failed, if oil cost 200 dollars a barrel, if the grid failed, etc. I remember when we were shocked at hearing oil cost $1.00 a liter in Europe. Guess what? Oil is over $4.00 a gallon here. So the guy from Canada saying that he wishes his oil cost what ours does is only telling us that there will be a point in the relatively near future when our oil cost as much as his!
The other side of this coin is food and we're starting to see food really go through the roof. It has to, we truck everything! We plow our fields with oil, milk our cows with machines that use electricity, etc.

If we look back I'll bet that the amount of energy each person uses on this planet has gone up logarithmically. It's human nature, now India wants to transition from mopeds to Nana's $2500 car the Tato. Oil has been so abundant that we took it for granted for so long that now we are stuck. It's the old story about not wanting to live with less but we may be forced to.

China is going solar because the pollution is making them so sick that they can't work along with the fact that they recognize that Industrialization runs on oil, so now we have this musical chairs situation where countries are scrambling for oil which brings war.

What can we do as individuals? Well I think the first thing is to get back to the victory gardens and even if we can't completely cover our electric with solar and wind we should start to move in that direction. It's the half a loaf is better than none story and if the grid fails (more like when) we'll have a head start.

Remember this: Land is power, we've been so indoctrinated that money is power but think about what you'd rather have when no food is available. A big pot of money or a big pot of stew to feed your family.

One thing about TBN, most of us have land. Look around your land and see what power you can harness. Do you have wind blown trees? A stream, lots of sun. You can install a "Stream Engine" for under $2000.00 if you're handy.
I don't know how many of you remember the old "Popular Mechanics" from the 50's. If you can find an issue on line look at the things people were building in their basements. I'm still doing that and now it's saving me money and energy.

Rob
 
   / $3.37 Gas & $3.58 Diesel - Thrilled. #295  
I have an old international 4wd S/A dump truck. It looks like the old school buses. It's got an 446 in it and when loaded I bet it gets 2 or 3 miles per gallon. I see plenty of farmers around here who have trucks like them they use for bringing crops in from the fields. I only use mine as a backup for plowing the driveway so it doesn't use much fuel. But I feel for the farmers as a new truck goes for big money and even old used diesels sell for lots.

I just don't think everyone understands that a hybrid is great for commuting to work but when you need a truck for hauling you need power. Most people can't afford to have a truck for when it's needed, a car for traveling and a small economy car for just driving into the office.

Our old grain truck/dump truck gets about 4 MPG, but we don't use it much either. You should see some of the trucks still in use around here. We have considered a newer more fuel efficient model, but the money or need just isn't there.

I am convinced that no matter what choices some of us make, our situations etc., someone will chime in with an attack and treatise on how we could/should do better.
 
   / $3.37 Gas & $3.58 Diesel - Thrilled. #296  
I wasn't talking about people who "NEED" trucks for their lively hood. What I was trying to point out is the soccer mom or city dweller who feel the need to drive a huge vehicle. LPS syndrome. I'm guessing in two years we will see $5.00 or maybe even $6.00 per gallon in the US for gas. I really dont have a feel for what price will get the average American to slow consumption, but it's proven that we wont do it till it hurts enough. I really think right now it's somewhere between 8 and 10 per gal. Just a guess.
 
   / $3.37 Gas & $3.58 Diesel - Thrilled. #297  
I wasn't talking about people who "NEED" trucks for their lively hood. What I was trying to point out is the soccer mom or city dweller who feel the need to drive a huge vehicle. LPS syndrome. I'm guessing in two years we will see $5.00 or maybe even $6.00 per gallon in the US for gas. I really don't have a feel for what price will get the average American to slow consumption, but it's proven that we wont do it till it hurts enough. I really think right now it's somewhere between 8 and 10 per gal. Just a guess.

Agreed and my point was that not everyone who drives a "gas guzzler" is irresponsible. I try not to make broad generalizations, but sometimes may fall short.

As to soccer moms or pretend outdoorsmen/construction/tough guy/farmer, I don't much care one way or the other as I try not to judge others. I feel once we or at least I start condemning them, then I have to consider all nonessential driving as well as bass boats, ATV/UTV, machines/tractors used for landscaping/grounds keeping, private planes, motorcycles and so on.

I once went three weeks without even starting anything with an internal combustion engine and often burn less than a tank of fuel a month, but I am not going to jump on anyone for what they do.

Advisory: While this is linked to a post by Wedge40, it is meant as a general statement. I dislike conflict and do not intend to engage in or foment it.
 
   / $3.37 Gas & $3.58 Diesel - Thrilled. #298  
Ladia,
Thanks for the comments.
38000 KWh equates to over 3 million watts/month. That's a lot of power. Right now we live on less than 400 KWh/month not counting heating the house. When the Geo goes in that will pump up but the intertie will balance it out.Rob
Rob,
I wish I could do it with 400 kWh/month. We have 100% electric house. The biggest user is our geothermal unit followed by lights. We have about 60 can lights in the house. Just recently I replaced all lights that are on more than about two hours/day with LED. I finally found dimmable LED that have light similar to incandescent in Home Depot. They are $50/pop but if they last as long as advertised they will pay for themselves at some point. When they get cheaper I will replace all incandescent in the house.

I visited India several times in past few years. Most people don't have AC. They just face the elements. Many rural areas have no reliable supply of electricity or electricity at all. They used to use kerosene lamps but they are switching to solar. It is cleaner and doesn't cause fires. Mahindra (tractor company) sells recharchable solar lamps with panels ranging from 10 to 50W.
 
   / $3.37 Gas & $3.58 Diesel - Thrilled. #299  
Rob,
I wish I could do it with 400 kWh/month. We have 100% electric house. The biggest user is our geothermal unit followed by lights. We have about 60 can lights in the house. Just recently I replaced all lights that are on more than about two hours/day with LED. I finally found dimmable LED that have light similar to incandescent in Home Depot. They are $50/pop but if they last as long as advertised they will pay for themselves at some point. When they get cheaper I will replace all incandescent in the house.

I visited India several times in past few years. Most people don't have AC. They just face the elements. Many rural areas have no reliable supply of electricity or electricity at all. They used to use kerosene lamps but they are switching to solar. It is cleaner and doesn't cause fires. Mahindra (tractor company) sells recharchable solar lamps with panels ranging from 10 to 50W.

That's an interesting point. I'm wondering how much my 4 ton geo will draw? It's something I'll have to research before I fully commit to it.

How efficient are the compressors? I guess I could work it from BTU's. If water comes into the compressor at 45F and we want 68F that's 23F change plus the efficiency of the compressor plus the efficiency of the pump moving the water.

R
 
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   / $3.37 Gas & $3.58 Diesel - Thrilled. #300  
I wasn't talking about people who "NEED" trucks for their lively hood. What I was trying to point out is the soccer mom or city dweller who feel the need to drive a huge vehicle. LPS syndrome. I'm guessing in two years we will see $5.00 or maybe even $6.00 per gallon in the US for gas. I really dont have a feel for what price will get the average American to slow consumption, but it's proven that we wont do it till it hurts enough. I really think right now it's somewhere between 8 and 10 per gal. Just a guess.

The bean counters have already said that once oil gets over a certain amount per barrel the economy can't survive. Look what's happening now, the economy is in trouble. If you watch oil and the economy you'll see that they're entirely dependent upon each other.

Triple R,
You're not listening to me. What I'm asking is what will you do when oil makes it inhibitive to drive your truck? You're concerned now but what will you do when it gets worse? After all this is a logical question I had to ask myself and find a formidable solution to. What's the cut off point where you can't afford gas?

We keep talking about gas going to 8 or 10 bucks a gallon but the economy will be in the dumper well before that and the cost of food will be inhibitive at that point too. There are already people on the news talking about the spike in food prices. I'm not being an alarmist I'm just not sticking my head in the sand. Waiting for a government, regardless of party, to save us is simply unrealistic.

So, I'm saying now is the time and hopefully it's not too late. We can talk about PV not being the answer but I'll bet having a couple of PV panels, an inverter and a few batteries will be worth their weight in gold in the relatively near future. Having a victory garden, a green house and a root cellar could change our lives.

It's not the kook building a fall out shelter in the 60's. We're already seeing the signs (Katrina for one). We also saw one relay take out the whole East coast electrical grid.
Look what just happened in Japan. How would we cope with that after how poorly we handled Katrina?

I don't think it's a matter of what will make us conserve, I think the switch will shut off and the opportunity won't be there and we'll look back at this debate about gas costing several dollars a gallon and wish we could have that again just like we would like to return to gas costing a buck a gallon. Do you remember how shocked we were when it went over $2.00? The oil companies know just how to manipulate people, now we'll be thrilled with gas at $3.00, nice of them!

So we either start thinking about solutions or we continue to be their saps. I heard an oil executive say solar panels take up too much room. What? We buy this rubbish?

I'm not your enemy, complacency and expecting someone else to fix the problem is.

R
 
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