1401 PTO issue URGENT!! Need to fix!!!

[psient]

Hi:

I just got the rototiller hooked-up to my Yanmar 1401. I went to try it out on an area I had recently tilled. The ground was thoroughly broken up and friable. I put the tiller in the 540 speed and started moving forward in low-first at 2000 rpm engine speed. At first with very little depth the rototiller seemed to be doing fine. However, when I tried to set the depth below 2 inches there was a problem. To my surprise the tiller stopped turning accompanied by a grinding noise and severe vibration. I went through the other pto speeds and found similar results.

The tractor has a new clutch and all forward and reverse speeds work fine as does the 4wd. The tiller will work up to the point where the resistance takes over and bogs it down.

The noise sounds like the gear-grinding noise made by forcing a regular gear without clutching the transmission. The forward speed continues to work while the tiller/pto is stopped. If I raise the tiller to the point that the resistance lessens, it resumes working.

This seems to be a PTO issue yes? Can anyone help me figure out how to fix this?

Thanks,

Jon

 

[Ginormous]

Can you tell where the grinding noise is coming from? Is it coming from the tiller?

 

[Car Doc]

What does the pto shaft do when this grinding is going on does it stop slow down stay the same?

Can you get someone to watch the tines and listen at the same time that is the only way to figure if its the tiller or tractor.

 

[winston1]

Do you have an overrun clutch? If so make sure it is not faulty. If I am understanding correctly the pto shaft is not turning. Reason I say this is because it could be gears or sprockets in the tiller if the pto continues to turn. If the pto is not turning you have bad gears, bad bearings, stripped drive coupling. Only pulling the pto unit will make positive diagnosis. Can't find a drawing of a 1401 pto housing but here is one on a 1500. Yours might be similiar. #25 is the housing. Yanmar Tractor Parts: TRANMSISSION_CASE_G

 

[psient]

What does the pto shaft do when this grinding is going on does it stop slow down stay the same?

Can you get someone to watch the tines and listen at the same time that is the only way to figure if its the tiller or tractor.

It's coming from the tractor.

Jon

 

[psient]

What does the pto shaft do when this grinding is going on does it stop slow down stay the same?

Can you get someone to watch the tines and listen at the same time that is the only way to figure if its the tiller or tractor.

The pto shaft stops.

 

[psient]

Do you have an overrun clutch? If so make sure it is not faulty. If I am understanding correctly the pto shaft is not turning. Reason I say this is because it could be gears or sprockets in the tiller if the pto continues to turn. If the pto is not turning you have bad gears, bad bearings, stripped drive coupling. Only pulling the pto unit will make positive diagnosis. Can't find a drawing of a 1401 pto housing but here is one on a 1500. Yours might be similiar. #25 is the housing. Yanmar Tractor Parts: TRANMSISSION_CASE_G

IF the overrun would be an attachment then no there isn't one. From the tractor to the tiller there is nothing but direct shafting.

Can you pull the pto assembly without splitting the tractor?

Thanks,

Jon

 

[damammel]

If the pto is not turning you have bad gears, bad bearings, stripped drive coupling. Only pulling the pto unit will make positive diagnosis.

Winston1 is right on. To figure out what is happening, now knowing the PTO shaft stops turning, you need to pull the housing off. A new gasket is available from Hoye but it appears the other parts may not be.

 

[damammel]

You should be able to pull the housing off the back where the PTO comes out. This will likely only allow you to look at it but not remove it But looking at the drawings, I'm not sure you'll be able to see much. At this point though I'd say its worth a try.

 

[Ginormous]

Before tearing the tractor apart, I would make double dog sure that the PTO coupler coming out of the tractor (the spline shaft that attaches to the PTO shaft) is stopping. With the PTO guard, it may be impossible to see while operating the tractor. If the spline and end of the PTO shaft are slipping over one another at high loads, it would make a grinding noise and would probably seem to come from the tractor's PTO gearbox. Good luck!

 

[284 International]

It sounds like the PTO gears aren't fully engaging, so are popping out when the thing is heavily loaded. My 1401D has solid detents that really click into place tightly, but it's easy to over or undershoot getting them in. Are you sure that you're all the way into the gears? Does the lever move at all when the grinding starts?

 

[psient]

It sounds like the PTO gears aren't fully engaging, so are popping out when the thing is heavily loaded. My 1401D has solid detents that really click into place tightly, but it's easy to over or undershoot getting them in. Are you sure that you're all the way into the gears? Does the lever move at all when the grinding starts?

As far as the PTO shaft spinning with the rototiller not moving, I checked and there is NO MOVEMENT of the PTO shaft.

I agree that it seems as if the PTO gears are not fully engaging. I will experiment with moving the PTO lever and see what happens.

So far no one seems to have had a similar issue. The main concern of those that have responded is that I cannot tell if it's the tiller or the tractor; thus checking the PTO shaft rotation against the tiller coupler is the method of establishing which it is.

IT is the tractor NOT the Tiller. What could be causing the issue? What do I look for if I pull the housing? Does anyone have any experience working on the PTO component of a Yanmar?


Thanks,

Jon

 

[winston1]

As I stated earlier, you are going to have to pull the pto assembly to get to the meat of the problem. Here is a thread that might help you. http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/yanmar/182449-power-take-off-shaft-snapped.html Here is another thread that might shed light. http://www.yanmarowners.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1280&p=5711&hilit=pto+snap+ring#p5711

 

[psient]

THanks Winston

I'll read 'em.

Jon

 

[clemsonfor]

Before id pull id i would hook a bushhog or some other pto implement and goo cut some tall grass and see it that grinds too, that will easily tell you the tractor or tiller. But also the whole PTO pulls out of the tractor as an assembly, just remove the bolts on it from the back of the tractor.

 

[Johndeere3720]

Before id pull id i would hook a bushhog or some other pto implement and goo cut some tall grass and see it that grinds too, that will easily tell you the tractor or tiller. But also the whole PTO pulls out of the tractor as an assembly, just remove the bolts on it from the back of the tractor.

Yes, I was going to suggest the same thing. I have a 169D which is the domestic model to the 1401D. In my manual it shows the gears for your PTO. I have seen the inside of the tranny on my 169D but i took off the hydraulic assembly because I had a seal go out on the cylinder. It wasnt a hard job, but you will get a lot more access to the PTO that way. I didn't see it in too much detail as I had hydro fluid in there but it isn't to complicated. Hoye may have the parts needed as they have several whole 1401's in parts. If you don't have one already, I greatly suggest getting a parts manual, it helps a lot when it comes to things breaking because it gives you parts numbers and a good image on how everything goes together and how it all works. I have attached a few pictures from my manual and of when I had my Yanmar apart in the hydraulic cylinder seal replacement.

 

[psient]

Before id pull id i would hook a bushhog or some other pto implement and goo cut some tall grass and see it that grinds too, that will easily tell you the tractor or tiller. But also the whole PTO pulls out of the tractor as an assembly, just remove the bolts on it from the back of the tractor.

Clemsonfor:

Yesterday I did watch what happened to the PTO shaft when the grinding occurred.

I slowly lowered the rototiller while the pto shaft was engaged and the tines were rotating.

At about 3-4 inches engagement with the ground the rototiller stopped moving along with the PTO shaft and the tractor. That is to say when the PTO was grinding and the rototiller was stopped, and the tractor would not move.

I tried to move the PTO selection lever while the tractor and the PTO was grinding/stopped. This did nothing as the selection shaft would not budge until the clutch was disengaged.

This will have to do as confirmation that it IS the tractor in my opinion; as I do not have a brush hog or other PTO driven attachment nor do I have access to one. I then decided to test the clutch to see if the splines on the coupling between the clutch and transmission was damaged.

To do this I put the tractor in low/first gear against a stout tree. The tractor engaged all four wheels and dug itself into a 1 foot hole without any grinding or slippage of the clutch.

I suppose that I'll have to start looking for help at identifying what is broken in the PTO. Either that or dump the yanmar and buy a new tractor.

Thanks for the input.

Jon

 

[psient]

i took off the hydraulic assembly because I had a seal go out on the cylinder. It wasnt a hard job, but you will get a lot more access to the PTO that way. I didn't see it in too much detail as I had hydro fluid in there but it isn't to complicated. Hoye may have the parts needed as they have several whole 1401's in parts.

I have attached a few pictures from my manual and of when I had my Yanmar apart in the hydraulic cylinder seal replacement.

Johndeere3720:

Thanks for the help with my problem. I am going to assume that you read my post to 'clemsonfor' above.

I looked at your tear-down pictures along with your copy of the manual. I do have the manuals that go with the tractor.

My understanding from looking at what you posted is that the drive to the rear tractor wheels and the PTO are directly related yes? That is to say some components are shared between the functions of running the tractor drive-train and running the PTO.

Do you have to remove the tire to get at the PTO or was that to facilitate your access to the seal you mentioned?

I was intending to call HOYE today and talk with them about this issue to see what feedback I'd get. Any other source of technical help you know about?

Thanks again for the assist.

Jon

 

[deepNdirt]

does the PTO & tiller still engage at a certain 3 pnt hight? Do you have a way to post pictures of the way the tiller drive shaft is connected?
has this tractor and tiller always been mated up together for use? or is it possible that the tiller had been setup to be used with either smaller or larger tractor at one time?

Is the drive-line from the tractor to the tiller slide as the tiller raises and lowers? when you mention that the tractor started making the grinding noise just after the tiller drops at a lower level it had curious about the drive-shaft connection or the angle of the drive-line, if the shaft does not slide with the movement of the tiller it could pull excessively against the PTO shaft gears and inner casing,

I suppose I'm looking at more of the cause than the fix, although sometimes it helps to better know how to fix something when we know what cause the problem in the first place,

here is something i found helpful,
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...=2&ndsp=20&tbm=isch&ei=NbQETtauF4HZgAeMrsSwDQ click how to rotary

 

[psient]

does the PTO & tiller still engage at a certain 3 pnt hight? Do you have a way to post pictures of the way the tiller drive shaft is connected?
has this tractor and tiller always been mated up together for use? or is it possible that the tiller had been setup to be used with either smaller or larger tractor at one time?

Is the drive-line from the tractor to the tiller a rigid connection? or does it slide as the tiller raises and lowers? when you mention that the tractor started making the grinding noise just after the tiller drops at a lower level it had curious about the drive-shaft connection, if the shaft does not slide with the movement of the tiller it could pull excessively against the PTO shaft gears and inner casing,

Hi:

Yes the PTO and tiller will work as long as the tines are not under load. It doesn't take much. Tilling in soft pre-tilled earth (I have a larger tractor that has rototilled the area used to test the 1401) it will work up to about 3 inches deep. Any deeper and it abruptly ceases to work accompanied by a horrible grinding sound. The other problems are described above.
There are pictures of the tiller set-up in a previous posting on this thread. These show the coupling between the tractor and tiller as well as a view of the tiller and tractor. The tiller is designed to work with the Yanmar specifically. The tiller is not modified in any way.

IF these pictures are not clear enough I can always upload some more.

Thanks for your input,

Jon