New Heating System Install

[DavidNPro]

I am remodeling my house and in the meantime installing new duct work and a new heating/ac system. Just wondering what you guys are using.

Have a few different quotes. Some are quoting an oil furnace with external ac unit only, other are quoting a heat pump like ac unit with oil backup essentially. Anyone out there have a setup like either of these? Does the heat pump type setup save at all on fuel or isnt it worth the extra cost of a few grand to get? From my research it appears as if the heat pump unit is only around 35k BTUs in heat or ac mode.

Thanks for any input.

 

[Zxyrthe]

I've been looking into this as well. I'm not sure a heat pump will be that beneficial in PA. And while expensive, oil will get you more bang for the buck than electric heat. However, the most cost effective (loosely-speaking) seems to be natural gas.

When comparing BTUs, remember to consider efficiency. While I get more BTUs per dollar from oil than electric (heat), my oil furnace is rated at 85% efficiency. so 15% of the heat goes out the flue. That means I'm only getting about 160 "gallons" of heat out my 200 gallon oil tank.

I've attached a spreadsheet that will calculate and compare oil, electric and gas and factor in efficiency.

fwiw - if oil hits $4 per gallon and electric no hire than $0.12 per kWh then it's about the same for me. I'm not sure about PA but electric rates in Connecticut are crazy steep.

Good luck.

 

[DavidNPro]

Thanks for the information.

Yeah I checked into gas but there is none available where I live and any sort of bottled gas around me is out of this world so that pretty much leaves me with oil or electric. Like you mentioned electric here is ridiculous right now so that is not feasible really.

I was hoping that a heat pump setup might help on the cool morning when its like 35-50 and not have to use so much oil. Below around 30 those systems are not too effecient it doesnt seem. I need to get going because it was only 45 here this morning and I have no furnace or duct work, YIKES!

 

[grsthegreat]

here in Idaho we pay $0.06/KWH so a heat pump works great for us. I heat / cool a 4200 SF house very efficiently. I have propane back up heat source when it gets too cold outside (+20f OR LOWER) BUT BY THEN THE WOOD FIREPLACE IS USUALLY FIRED UP ANYWAYS....dang caps button. After initial few seconds my 4-1/2 ton heat pump is only using 35 amps to heat the house...thats the same as a couple of electric wall heaters. The best thing is in the summer i get air conditioning. I guess it all depends on your energy costs.

 

[Mickey_Fx]

We had a heat pump install this past winter. Made a big difference in our electric bill. We're all electric and paying $.08/kwh. Did have ceiling heat and was costing ~$225/mo in middle of the winter with the old heat. Feb was first full month with the HP and our electric bill dropped 40%.

This is not an entry level model it's one of the higher end model and fairly high efficiency. Can extract heat down to about 20, not as much as when it's 40 but still useful amount. At the efficiency rate this model is, it cost >1/3 of straight electric heat to operate.

Where is gets colder than here, one can up the efficiency by going with what is typ called a geothermal HP where it uses ground as the exchange medium. You do need to get down past the frost level to get sufficient amount of heat. Not a cheap system but an efficient one to operate.

 

[Chilly807]

We have a geothermal heat pump system, although we didn't get AC as an option. No problems down to -20C, it keeps up quite nicely.

Typical heating costs for a 2100 sq. foot house (1500 living space, occasionally heated 600 ft garage) has been ~$800/year.

We use a little bit of wood heat just because we have it available.

Our hydro costs are 12 cents per kwh.

Sean

 

[KTurner]

I was just looking at heating oil prices for my wife's grandmother. She lives beside us, by herself, in a ~1500 sqft home that is about 40 years old. The furnace is newer - maybe 15 years old or so. Over the last two seasons, she has used an average of 685 gallons of oil. Last week, I was given a price of $4/gallon. That's over $2,700 to heat her house. We're in southeast VA. It doesn't get that cold here. Our house is about 24 years old and is ~2000sqft. I think we used 3 cords of wood last winter. Current prices around here are $175/cord. Of course, my wife likes it to be cold, and her 95 year old grandmother does not. But $2,700 sounds like an awful lot.

Keith

 

[Chilly807]

I was just looking at heating oil prices for my wife's grandmother. She lives beside us, by herself, in a ~1500 sqft home that is about 40 years old. The furnace is newer - maybe 15 years old or so. Over the last two seasons, she has used an average of 685 gallons of oil. Last week, I was given a price of $4/gallon. That's over $2,700 to heat her house. We're in southeast VA. It doesn't get that cold here. Our house is about 24 years old and is ~2000sqft. I think we used 3 cords of wood last winter. Current prices around here are $175/cord. Of course, my wife likes it to be cold, and her 95 year old grandmother does not. But $2,700 sounds like an awful lot.

Keith

It's getting so expensive to heat now that one of the questions on a credit questionnaire is how much you pay to heat your home over a year.. First time I've seen that question.

We wanted out of using oil for a couple reasons, one is the world price fluctuating wildly depending on who's pi**ed at whom in the Middle East.

Second on the list was liability for oil spills, escalating insurance if you heat with oil, and having to replace a tank every 10 years.

Sean

 

[Carl_NH]

If you have the cash to invest geothermal is probably the lowest annual cost. Then there is the Fed tax credits I think still available..

For reference my family lives in the York Pa area, one house 5000SF geothermal average bill is $225-250 month winter, and heat of summer about $175-200 - estimate average is $200 or $24-2500 a year.

The other house is 3500SF with A/C and Oil FHA for the winter months. They use 350-400 gal oil each winter and avg elec bill is $120 month in summer probably $100 a month average. so 3.50 x400 = $1400 + 1200 Elec or $2600. with 1500 SF less space to heat.

Both houses are less than 15 yrs old and well insulated.

I live in NH and installed a Buderus 90% efficient oil FHW system 2 yrs ago and our oil use went from 900 gal to 500 gal annually, plus got $1500 tax credit.

We only need window AC units in our 2800 SF house and use those sparingly as we pay $0.20 a KWH or for 700KW = $140 a month!

 

[DavidNPro]

Our electric bill runs around $100 - $120 a month and we use probably about 500 gallons of fuel a year. Granted we are insulating much better for the remodel and the current furnace is probably a good 20 - 25 years old. Did some more research and the heat pump they are talking about is the air source type, and it is infact good to about 20, then the oil would kick on. No clue how much electricity it will use while running.

I talked to some friends who had a "real" geothermal heat pump put it. That system runs a little over 30k from what he told me. Dont know if I will live long enough to see the return on that, because he still pays several hundred a month in electricity.


Decisions, decisions....

 

[mrpoppy58]

I am remodeling my house and in the meantime installing new duct work and a new heating/ac system. Just wondering what you guys are using.

Have a few different quotes. Some are quoting an oil furnace with external ac unit only, other are quoting a heat pump like ac unit with oil backup essentially. Anyone out there have a setup like either of these? Does the heat pump type setup save at all on fuel or isnt it worth the extra cost of a few grand to get? From my research it appears as if the heat pump unit is only around 35k BTUs in heat or ac mode.

Thanks for any input.

In 2009 We installed a Three ton Trane Heat Pump. We installed an Adams condensing Fuel Oil Furnace for backup. It is 96% efficent and We are well pleased with it. We do not have access to natural Gas and Propane is very expensive around here. We have heated with Fuel Oil since 1965. This is the best Furnace we have had. Have a good Day.

 

[scott_vt]

Second on the list was liability for oil spills, escalating insurance if you heat with oil, and having to replace a tank every 10 years.

Sean

Good Afternoon Sean,
Im not sure where you got that info !

#1 The liability of a spill is squarely on the oil companies shoulders !

#2 Escalating insurance on using oil heat ? Never heard that one before...

#3 The typical 275 gallon home oil tank probablly gets replaced every 30 years and some have gone longer !

I dont heat with oil,so no preference to it, I use a combination of propane, electric and of course my woodstove.....

I just feel there is some false info there JMO...

 

[Zxyrthe]

I failed to mention that we also use a woodstove throughout the fall and winter but the way the house is setup, it only really heats one half of the home (~3000 sq. ft.; 100 years old). Cooling is a giant a/c window unit that refrigerates the entire living room but does a good job of cooling the rest of the house.

Our monthly average energy cost (oil and electric) is about $360 but that's for a ton of stuff: electric baseboard in one building, garage fridge and freezer, etc.

I'm always looking for ways to dial it all down but as observed here, the implementation costs can be so high that you never see a return on the investment.

 

[Gator6x4]

A heating Contractor told me the Heat Pump was the most efficient way to heat when the temperature stays above 41 degrees. Below that and the Heat Strips kick in. His advice was to install a Heat Pump as primary, without heat coils and then install a gas or oil furnace to become primary when the temperature drops below 41 degree. Everything is controlled by sensors and a programmable thermostat.

 

[Chilly807]

Good Afternoon Sean,
Im not sure where you got that info !

#1 The liability of a spill is squarely on the oil companies shoulders !

#2 Escalating insurance on using oil heat ? Never heard that one before...

#3 The typical 275 gallon home oil tank probablly gets replaced every 30 years and some have gone longer !

I dont heat with oil,so no preference to it, I use a combination of propane, electric and of course my woodstove.....

I just feel there is some false info there JMO...

In that case, don't move to Canada..:laughing:

1) Once the oil has been delivered to you, you (or your insurance company) is responsible should the tank fail, or oil leak out by other means.

2) I receive a 15% insurance discount by using electricity to heat my home. I consider that a penalty for NOT using electricity.

3) I agree that most tanks are good for much longer than 10 years. However, you will be denied insurance coverage if your tank is older than 10 years. I don't know about you, but at this stage of life, I need home insurance.

I'd be surprised if the situation was much different in the US, if it isn't there already I suspect it's only a matter of time.

Sean

 

[Chilly807]

A heating Contractor told me the Heat Pump was the most efficient way to heat when the temperature stays above 41 degrees. Below that and the Heat Strips kick in. His advice was to install a Heat Pump as primary, without heat coils and then install a gas or oil furnace to become primary when the temperature drops below 41 degree. Everything is controlled by sensors and a programmable thermostat.

That's one of the reasons we went with a geothermal system, the heat source (ground) stays at a relatively constant temperature year-round. We expect to see the difference in cost between the geothermal and most any other system absorbed over the first 5-7 years we're in the house.

Cost-wise, the prices seem to have really soared in the past three years since we built our house. Our total system cost (for new construction) was slightly over 20K, most quotes today seem to be over 30K..

Sean

 

[KTurner]

#1 The liability of a spill is squarely on the oil companies shoulders !

Every cost that any business/corporation has to pay is eventually paid by their customers in the form of higher prices, whether that cost is raw goods prices, cost of labor, insurance, transportation, more taxes, more regulation, etc. They may be able to absorb increased costs for a while, but it will eventually put them out of business.

But I think he was talking about homeowners insurance being more expensive due to the possibility of the homeowner's oil tank springing a leak and having 200+ gallons of oil spill onto/into the ground.

Keith

 

[Carl_NH]

Thats one of the reasons I replaced my 15 YO steel tank with a Roth double wall poly internal tank and galvanized exterior tank with leak sensors. Roth provides a $1M guarantee against leakage and are only top ported. There is really no way for the Roth tank to leak unless it is ruptured or damaged by external forces.

 

[dex3361]

I've been looking into this as well. I'm not sure a heat pump will be that beneficial in PA. And while expensive, oil will get you more bang for the buck than electric heat. However, the most cost effective (loosely-speaking) seems to be natural gas.

When comparing BTUs, remember to consider efficiency. While I get more BTUs per dollar from oil than electric (heat), my oil furnace is rated at 85% efficiency. so 15% of the heat goes out the flue. That means I'm only getting about 160 "gallons" of heat out my 200 gallon oil tank.

I've attached a spreadsheet that will calculate and compare oil, electric and gas and factor in efficiency.

fwiw - if oil hits $4 per gallon and electric no hire than $0.12 per kWh then it's about the same for me. I'm not sure about PA but electric rates in Connecticut are crazy steep.

Good luck.

Looked over the spread sheet and I think there is a discrepancy in the electrical. You show the electrical as 1 KW of heat for 1 KW of electricity used. That would be true for electric resistance heat but a heat pump would give 2 KW of heat for 1 KW of electricity even at 5 degrees F outdoor temp. The warmer it gets the better the ratio gets all the way up to more than 4KW of heat for 1 KW of electricity used.

 

[Chilly807]

Looked over the spread sheet and I think there is a discrepancy in the electrical. You show the electrical as 1 KW of heat for 1 KW of electricity used. That would be true for electric resistance heat but a heat pump would give 2 KW of heat for 1 KW of electricity even at 5 degrees F outdoor temp. The warmer it gets the better the ratio gets all the way up to more than 4KW of heat for 1 KW of electricity used.

Exactly right.. most geothermal systems are based on an efficiency of 350% under ideal conditions.

Sean