Environmentalists won't quit until we are walking and have no vehicles

   / Environmentalists won't quit until we are walking and have no vehicles #111  
They should use the EPA on themselves. The government is a major source of pollution- nuclear is the ultimate pollution- whether in the ocean or eventually in Yucca Flats- built on a fault line. I like seeing them come in and clean up. Maybe cancer won't be increasing.

Nuclear is a great problem not only in the US but world wide. When a Country lacks an EPA or environment rules and regulations Nuclear Material is turned over to "Business" for disposal. Look at Somalia. Somalia & the Mafia, the nuclear waste dump zone « Follow The Money

Barnwell SC is one very huge Nuclear waste storage location. The Barnwell site is the regional disposal facility for low-level radioactive waste generated in the Atlantic Compact region. Formerly known as the Northeast Compact, the Atlantic Compact was approved by Congress in 1985. South Carolina joined Connecticut and New Jersey as the third member state in 2000.

The Barnwell site is limited to the disposal of Class A, B and C radioactive waste as defined by federal regulations. Waste that exceeds Class C concentration limits for radioactivity cannot be disposed at the Barnwell site and must await the development by the federal government of a deep geologic repository.

Each state in the US most likely has tons of nuclear material greater than Class C radioactive materials stored somewhere within it borders since no location currently exists to store such materials.
 
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   / Environmentalists won't quit until we are walking and have no vehicles #112  
I once heard a comment based on the old TV show Naked City (NYC). Remember Naked City and the saying at the beginning of the show? "There are 8 million stories in the Naked City." Just think, horse dung from 8 million horses on a hot August afternoon after a nice rain shower.

I hear all this talk about superfunds and cleanup sites. Where does all this cleaned up stuff go?

We send everything to Canada now. Get it across the border asap. Once it's there then it's out of the EPA's hands. I would imagine that most companies now do the same. The stuff that does stay in the country gets sent to specially lined dumps but it's still owned (forever) by the company that called it a waste.
 
   / Environmentalists won't quit until we are walking and have no vehicles #113  
An option for those not liking clean air and water is to move to a country that has no regulations, they and their family can consume lots of nasty chemicals that way. If they don't think these chemicals and pollutants will harm them, that is the way to go. The whole world needs to be aware that we live with finite resources and an exploding population. Something has to give, think it through.

Yea, well, what was that the answer to, the world's stupidest question? If so, you win!:laughing:

If you'd actually read any of the posts from the anti government full control group, you'd know that none of us is against clean air, clean water, or clean underwear. What we're against is trying to remove the last 1% at the cost of 90%.;)
 
   / Environmentalists won't quit until we are walking and have no vehicles #114  
It is simple- some people like living in their own sh.... and don't mind that of others. Some people like it clean - environmentalists- and don't want to gag and smell the neighbors (anti-EPA)!:drink::laughing::thumbsup:

OK, I stand corrected, that is the stupidest answer I've ever seen an adult post in regard to a debate that never comes close to the subject you inject here! Congratulations, you a month's cruise on the Whale Wars ship!
 
   / Environmentalists won't quit until we are walking and have no vehicles #115  
Have dealt with the EPA. When something is declared illegal I stay away from it. I don't say, "If no one sees me do it, it's not illegal." Toxic waste leaves a signature that can be traced right back to the polluters front door. We need the EPA to protect the current population of the US and generations to come.

If the town you are referring to is Libby Montana listen to the information here. Thousands dead of Asbestos from W.R. Grace mine in Libby, Montana-3/4 - YouTube It is long. Thousands are still living in Libby Montana and thousands have died. The residents of Libby Montana asked a simple question, "If I move to another location will the asbestos contamination leave my body?" The answer of course was NO. So for this reason they stayed to die in familiar surroundings and with there friends and neighbors.

Wrong time zone. The site I'm talking about is about 20 miles from me. I've read everything in the papers and on the internet and it amazes me just how wrong all of it is. All one needs to do is talk with the local people and you quickly get a real sense as to what's going on. Basically if the EPA turns a site into a superfund site then everybody connected to that site gets brought in as a defendant. Because the tailings were sold as a product they are not classified as toxic waste. That means that everybody who has any of it on their property, whether it's gravel on their drive, a rock on display, or stone in their leach field is now on the hook because they are the end user. By EPA rules if they declare it toxic then the end user must pay to clean it up, they become the waste generator, and they own the waste for life. It's up to the defendants to prove that their stone did not come from the superfund site.

If the homeowners can't, how do you prove where the stone you bought 30 years ago came from, then they are forced to pay. Think about it, stone from the ground that could have come from a different pit not far away that's the same stone is automatically assumed to have come from the mine. Once they were informed just how badly the government was going to screw them they voted no. It wasn't even close. In one town it was something like 97% of the voters. The other was a little closer only because they also included using the land to build a new plant (nothing to do with Asbestos).

I like clean air and water and I don't want to see the EPA done away with. But it has gotten political and people now fear it. Nobody should fear the government's help. What I told you is not some odd ball case, it's closer to the norm. A local rail road got a huge fine because someone left three 55 gallon drums of kerosene in a box car. It had never been used and it was tracked down to being left there from 1967. The EPA called it waste and fined them over a half million dollars. The federal court just rubber stamped the determination of the EPA and nearly bankrupted the railroad. Since it's owned by the employees they took massive cuts just to keep the doors open. Last summer a gas station found out that back in 1950 something the land was the site of a laundrymat and cleaning chemicals were in the ground. The building had to be leveled and all the dirt removed as toxic waste. The owner was a large fuel distributor but it cost them millions. This happens all the time. If you honestly don't believe that stuff like this doesn't go through the heads of businessmen as they decide "stay in the US or move the company offshore" then I don't know what to say.
 
   / Environmentalists won't quit until we are walking and have no vehicles #116  
It is a bit short sighted to think closing the EPA will make things cleaner, so yes, that is exactly what people here have said. It is the same irrational argument of beheading someone who makes mistakes. The EPA is meant to clean up the environment, and that is what they do. Do they go overboard in some ways? Sure, just as every business tries to push forward. They are a government agency, which instantly means they are for-profit. It also means they are open to lobbyist groups' influence and political pressure. It is the nature of government to be corrupt. Do you want to close the government entirely, too? If so, then we're taking on a whole different discussion.



And at every summit and global meeting, they are there protesting. Of course people will protest more in their own back yards, as it is cheaper/easier and, frankly, more likely to get results. If everyone protested in their own back yards, nobody would have to leave their country to fight for cleaner industry.



Have you ever read up on the efficiency of the internal combustion engine? They are horribly inefficient (18%-20%). Last 1%? More like last 80%. I have yet to see a single post in which someone has said cars pollute way too much, but even if they did.. they are right, internal combustion engines suck.. gas! Time to push the auto industry to find a better way, or more pointedly, get out of the way of alternatives, such as far more robust mass transit.



And that is different from any other position of power, how? This is hardly an EPA specific argument.



Seeing as the USA is far behind other countries in mass transit, I hope they keep going until the automotive dam finally breaks and we begin to see alternatives to people driving gas guzzlers into town for a cheeseburger. I would love to see more focus on making mini-cars or purely electric vehicles or modernizing our electric grid to something resembling this century. I find it tough to understand how burying hundreds of billions into the war machine can't be better spent investing it into local research, conversions and modernizations in order to move away from fossil fuels, millions of oversized cars/SUVs/trucks and coal fired power plants.

It seems as though the only people in our way is.. us! We, as a nation, rise up to protect the 'rights' of corporations to sit on technology which can move us forward, then bail out those who are constantly lobbying to keep us back, auto makers, coal industry, big oil, etc.

How does closing the EPA fix any of this?

By all means, please move to a country with great mass transit and enjoy your ride with the good people, the ******, the thieves, the smelly,...Maybe you can sit next to the good people riding. I imagine however, you'd be taking the limo instead, because that MT is for the great unwashed masses, now isn't it?
Meanwhile, I'll be driving my Lt1 Corvette powered Bravada, or my Tahoe, or my Olds 442 with 400 horsepower, as long as I can afford to and people like you try to tell me what I should do! :thumbsup:
 
   / Environmentalists won't quit until we are walking and have no vehicles #117  
Wrong time zone. The site I'm talking about is about 20 miles from me. I've read everything in the papers and on the internet and it amazes me just how wrong all of it is. All one needs to do is talk with the local people and you quickly get a real sense as to what's going on. Basically if the EPA turns a site into a superfund site then everybody connected to that site gets brought in as a defendant. Because the tailings were sold as a product they are not classified as toxic waste. That means that everybody who has any of it on their property, whether it's gravel on their drive, a rock on display, or stone in their leach field is now on the hook because they are the end user. By EPA rules if they declare it toxic then the end user must pay to clean it up, they become the waste generator, and they own the waste for life. It's up to the defendants to prove that their stone did not come from the superfund site.

If the homeowners can't, how do you prove where the stone you bought 30 years ago came from, then they are forced to pay. Think about it, stone from the ground that could have come from a different pit not far away that's the same stone is automatically assumed to have come from the mine. Once they were informed just how badly the government was going to screw them they voted no. It wasn't even close. In one town it was something like 97% of the voters. The other was a little closer only because they also included using the land to build a new plant (nothing to do with Asbestos).

I like clean air and water and I don't want to see the EPA done away with. But it has gotten political and people now fear it. Nobody should fear the government's help. What I told you is not some odd ball case, it's closer to the norm. A local rail road got a huge fine because someone left three 55 gallon drums of kerosene in a box car. It had never been used and it was tracked down to being left there from 1967. The EPA called it waste and fined them over a half million dollars. The federal court just rubber stamped the determination of the EPA and nearly bankrupted the railroad. Since it's owned by the employees they took massive cuts just to keep the doors open. Last summer a gas station found out that back in 1950 something the land was the site of a laundrymat and cleaning chemicals were in the ground. The building had to be leveled and all the dirt removed as toxic waste. The owner was a large fuel distributor but it cost them millions. This happens all the time. If you honestly don't believe that stuff like this doesn't go through the heads of businessmen as they decide "stay in the US or move the company offshore" then I don't know what to say.
All the small marinas around here had to stop selling gasoline due to the million dollar and higher policies required to operate, now most closed altogether because only the big ones could afford to pay the premium and while people get gas they buy the other things they need.
I use to burn about about 50-100 gallons of that high octane premium every week in my Z29 Donzi with the twin 650 horsepower, 540 cubic inch big block Chevy engines and bought most at a small, marina in the river where I put over. I then had to go an extra 40 miles one way, using and extra 30'ish gallons of that polluting, stinky gasoline on the round trip because the EPA shut down the closer ones.
I sure loved hearing those big blocks wale and the smell of gas fumes on a beautiful summer evening while idling into the bar at the Harbor Club, all bought with my money and within my rights as a citizen of the United States of America!:cool:
 
   / Environmentalists won't quit until we are walking and have no vehicles #118  
Wrong time zone. The site I'm talking about is about 20 miles from me. I've read everything in the papers and on the internet and it amazes me just how wrong all of it is. All one needs to do is talk with the local people and you quickly get a real sense as to what's going on. Basically if the EPA turns a site into a superfund site then everybody connected to that site gets brought in as a defendant. Because the tailings were sold as a product they are not classified as toxic waste. That means that everybody who has any of it on their property, whether it's gravel on their drive, a rock on display, or stone in their leach field is now on the hook because they are the end user. By EPA rules if they declare it toxic then the end user must pay to clean it up, they become the waste generator, and they own the waste for life. It's up to the defendants to prove that their stone did not come from the superfund site.

If the homeowners can't, how do you prove where the stone you bought 30 years ago came from, then they are forced to pay. Think about it, stone from the ground that could have come from a different pit not far away that's the same stone is automatically assumed to have come from the mine. Once they were informed just how badly the government was going to screw them they voted no. It wasn't even close. In one town it was something like 97% of the voters. The other was a little closer only because they also included using the land to build a new plant (nothing to do with Asbestos).

I like clean air and water and I don't want to see the EPA done away with. But it has gotten political and people now fear it. Nobody should fear the government's help. What I told you is not some odd ball case, it's closer to the norm. A local rail road got a huge fine because someone left three 55 gallon drums of kerosene in a box car. It had never been used and it was tracked down to being left there from 1967. The EPA called it waste and fined them over a half million dollars. The federal court just rubber stamped the determination of the EPA and nearly bankrupted the railroad. Since it's owned by the employees they took massive cuts just to keep the doors open. Last summer a gas station found out that back in 1950 something the land was the site of a laundrymat and cleaning chemicals were in the ground. The building had to be leveled and all the dirt removed as toxic waste. The owner was a large fuel distributor but it cost them millions. This happens all the time. If you honestly don't believe that stuff like this doesn't go through the heads of businessmen as they decide "stay in the US or move the company offshore" then I don't know what to say.

Okay let's change time zones to Eden/Lowell Vermont. I think one thing that scared the residents was a Politician.( Representative Mark Higley of Lowell told local residents that he feared the EPA would focus on asbestos fill offsite rather than the tailings at the mine site. An anonymous resident told the press that he feared the EPA would “sit on the site” for 10 to 15 years before starting the clean up. Higley also warned residents that once placed on the Superfund list, it’s impossible to be removed from it.)

Another probably had to do with civil liability and who could sue and who could be sued. Another was property values and the civil liability that would attach if someone knowingly sold property that contained a toxic hazardous material.

One can only provide factual accurate information. If people elect to ignore and discount the information then they have only themselves to blame when disaster strikes.

Vermont:

Eden/Lowell Town Meeting:

Eden resident Leslie White held a research-filled notebook as she voiced disapproval of a proposal to have the former asbestos mine site in Lowell and Eden declared a federal Superfund site, as one of the most polluted locations in the country.

A developer is interested in building a wood biomass power plant there, but to do that, the site has to be cleaned up.

The Vermont Asbestos Group Mine, inactive since the 1990s, sits on about 1,550 acres on Belvidere Mountain within both Eden and Lowell.

Town-meeting voters in both towns will decide next month whether to endorse the Superfund request.
“We have to be careful about what we say yes to,” White said.“People can promise anything. A 10-year window to clean up the mine probably isn’t accurate.”

Last summer, Vermont Agency of Natural Resources officials argued that federal money is essential to cleaning up the tailings from the mine. The main concern is asbestos debris invading the local watershed.
Townspeople who attended meetings about the Superfund proposal last summer opposed the idea, fearing their property values would drop.

“We are not sick from airborne fibers,” White said. “Asbestos fibers are part of our ecology here in northern Vermont. Let’s accept it and move on.”

Whitcomb scoffed at projections that the cleanup project would provide jobs while pumping money into the local economy.

“It would only give federal employees more jobs,” Whitcomb said. “We don’t need any more superfunds. The country is broke. In 10 years, we’ll be as bad off financially as Greece.”
March 14, 2012

Eden/Lowell, Vermont - Last Tuesday, voters in the towns of Lowell and Eden, Vermont rejected a proposition that would have declared the Vermont Asbestos Group mine site – formerly referred to as the Belvedere Mines – a U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Superfund site, providing funding to clean up the piles of asbestos tailings from the now defunct mine.

According to various Associated Press reports, the resolutions were re-soundly defeated in both locales. In Eden, the vote was 3 in favor and 106 opposed. In Lowell, 38 voted in favor of the Superfund designation while 103 voted against it. Experts surmise that the positive vote in Lowell was a little higher because there were plans in place to build a biomass plant at the site.

The Belvedere Asbestos Mines were long shared by the two municipalities as Belvedere Mountain straddles the two towns. Before the vote, Vermont Governor Peter Shumlin told the press he would not support the Superfund designation unless both towns were in favor of it.

Representative Mark Higley of Lowell told local residents that he feared the EPA would focus on asbestos fill offsite rather than the tailings at the mine site. An anonymous resident told the press that he feared the EPA would “sit on the site” for 10 to 15 years before starting the clean up. Higley also warned residents that once placed on the Superfund list, it’s impossible to be removed from it.

Most residents simply worried about a decline in property values and many believe there are no health risks from the piles, even though experts have long known that airborne asbestos fibers that are inhaled can enter the lung area and cause tumors to form, resulting in an eventual diagnosis of asbestosis, pleural mesothelioma, and other cancers.

One Selectman from Lowell, Alden Warner, told residents he was in favor of the designation, saying the town should consider the future health of their children and grandchildren.


Read more: Vermont Towns Vote Against Superfund Designation | Mesothelioma Cancer Alliance News
 
   / Environmentalists won't quit until we are walking and have no vehicles #119  
And that is different from any other position of power, how? This is hardly an EPA specific argument.



Seeing as the USA is far behind other countries in mass transit, I hope they keep going until the automotive dam finally breaks and we begin to see alternatives to people driving gas guzzlers into town for a cheeseburger. I would love to see more focus on making mini-cars or purely electric vehicles or modernizing our electric grid to something resembling this century. I find it tough to understand how burying hundreds of billions into the war machine can't be better spent investing it into local research, conversions and modernizations in order to move away from fossil fuels, millions of oversized cars/SUVs/trucks and coal fired power plants.

It seems as though the only people in our way is.. us! We, as a nation, rise up to protect the 'rights' of corporations to sit on technology which can move us forward, then bail out those who are constantly lobbying to keep us back, auto makers, coal industry, big oil, etc.

How does closing the EPA fix any of this?


First, I suggest you do your part and get rid of that polluting old Yanmar of yours...use mules or oxen...set the example, eh?
Otherwise, you're just the typical lefty limousine liberal, except you're operating a tractor.
Secondly, sell your rural home and move to an urban area...take advantage of the mass transit you so love...how about that?

Speaking of mass transit...unlike Europe, Japan and other countries, the US population is quite spread out. Mass transit isn't a viable proposition in most of the US. The cities and urban areas that do have mass transit have pretty decent systems...especially considering most systems are heavily subsidised in order to operate.
It's not that the US is behind in mass transit...it just won't work in most of the United States...I'll wager you, yourself, use mass transit infrequently.

Well, since you don't want to be a limousine liberal or a polluter, I'm sure you'll be selling your tractor. And, since you're selling your tractor, you won't have much need to visit or post on TBN.
So, let me be the first to wish you a fond fair well and don't let the door slam you in the azz as you're leaving!
 
   / Environmentalists won't quit until we are walking and have no vehicles #120  
So, what happens if a site does not become a superfund site? Does it just sit there unused forever? Do they just pretend the toxins are not there or don't affect anything?

I can't see houses being built at an abandoned asbestos mine.. so what happens to that land?
 

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