CK25 will not start

ritcheyvs · Aug 1, 2012

For econ99: Correct. Now that I see that you have the newer style stop solenoid, you should also remove the stop solenoid when you do this check. The stop solenoid has a strong spring that operates on a rod to push and hold the rack to the full-off position. When the key is "on" an electrical solenoid is supposed to overcome this spring and retract the rod; only then can the rack move freely. So the stop solenoid should be removed to ensure the rack is free to move.

When you have that cover off, you'll see a "pin" with springs and levers. The pin is attached to the rack. The springs and levers act on this pin to move the rack to inject more or less fuel depending on "throttle" position and engine rpm. The so-called "throttle" actually sets the rpm via a balance between the centrifugal governor force and the spring force from the throttle linkage.

But the bottom line is this: if the rack is jammed (with the stop solenoid removed) there's something wring inside the IP.

ritcheyvs · Aug 1, 2012

sherrym said:
When we put gauge on fuel line that connects to IP and cranked engine the gauge only gave us 8 psi reading. Not sure if this would effect not enough flow of fuel into IP or not.

8 psi is probably fine. You only need enough pressure to push fuel through the filter and into the IP.

sherrym · Aug 4, 2012

ritcheyvs said:
8 psi is probably fine. You only need enough pressure to push fuel through the filter and into the IP.

Well bad news. Removed SS and tested it and was fine, then removed oil fill flange and when tried to move IP rack to the right it was frozen about as much as could be (this was done while SS still removed). I guess now will need to install new pump, dissmantel old pump and try to see what broke.

Hope for you Econ99 that your rack moves and it is something else. If not though and you need to replace yours maybe this next question will be of benefit to both of us.

Is this type k mini pump a pluge and play meaning no timing of gears? Do you know if checking for injection timing in the Dk45s(dk451) manual is nesseccary?

Thanks

ritcheyvs · Aug 4, 2012

sherrym said:
Is this type k mini pump a pluge and play meaning no timing of gears? Do you know if checking for injection timing in the Dk45s(dk451) manual is nesseccary?

No hablo k mini, but ... there are no adjustments inside the actual injection pump itself. Timing is set by shimming between the block and the injection pump flange. I think you'll be fine if you just install a new pump using the old shims. You have to put it back together anyway to check timing, anyway, so just put it back together and check injection timing some later day if you don't think it's running right. If the timing is out, you'll then need to order different shims. This way you'll have a running tractor in case you have to wait for parts.

grainger12002 · Aug 4, 2012

remember before you spend lots of money, there are good diesel shops that can do repairs to the inj pump. See if you have a local shop or if the dealer could recommend a shop to fix the frozen rack.

ritcheyvs · Aug 4, 2012

grainger12002 said:
remember before you spend lots of money, there are good diesel shops that can do repairs to the inj pump. See if you have a local shop or if the dealer could recommend a shop to fix the frozen rack.

The often-reported failure mode is broken teeth on the plunger gear(s) and/or rack. These are not precision matched parts like the plunger and cylinder. If someone had a source for replacements for the rack and these gears the pumps would not be hard to rebuild. So far, I have not seen reports of parts or successful IP rebuilds except for one lister: his rack was OK so he just re-installed his gears 180 degrees so the bad teeth didn't touch the rack. A source for these parts would be a boon to quite a few folks, I imagine. A real Bosch Diesel shop may well be able to fix these things for little money.

sherrym · Aug 5, 2012

ritcheyvs said:
The often-reported failure mode is broken teeth on the plunger gear(s) and/or rack. These are not precision matched parts like the plunger and cylinder. If someone had a source for replacements for the rack and these gears the pumps would not be hard to rebuild. So far, I have not seen reports of parts or successful IP rebuilds except for one lister: his rack was OK so he just re-installed his gears 180 degrees so the bad teeth didn't touch the rack. A source for these parts would be a boon to quite a few folks, I imagine. A real Bosch Diesel shop may well be able to fix these things for little money.

If material is bad on one side of the gear to let it break then you might not get too many hours before teeth on other side would break. When we had the oil fill flange off you could just see the very tip top of the teeth on plunger gears and they are really tiny.

Will let you know what we find when disassemble.

econ99 · Aug 8, 2012

I opened the oil fill flange and removed the solenoid. Felt around in there everything seemed in place nothing on the bottom. Moved what I think is the plunger back and forth by putting my finder into the solenoid hole and pushing. Then feeling what it moved from the oil flange opening. Pushed it back and forth. Put it all back together. Next I had 2 injectors cracked. One closest to the front of the tractor and one closest to the back. When I cranked the key the front injector spurted a nice strong stream. The back just bubbled a bit but no strong stream like the front one. tightened both down and tried starting hoping the front one would be enough. No go.

Another side question, should the oil fill flange area of the IP have oil. I was expecting an oily mess when opening, but it was pretty dry. checked dip stick level is fine.

ritcheyvs · Aug 9, 2012

The fact you seem to get different flow from different injector pipes may just be air in the lines or it could be an internal failure inside the injector pump (IP) or delivery valves. It sounds like you are able to move the IP rack so the rack isn't jammed but gear teeth could still be missing allowing different fuel amounts going to different injectors.

You can charge up the battery and then crank until you are sure there is no air left in the lines to the injectors. If you still get good fuel t othe line to one injector but not to another, I'd say the IP or delivery valves must be defective.

One thing you might test first is to check the voltage at the glow plugs with the switch in both crank and in run. No-glow will also prevent starting and maybe that's the only problem now. So you want to rule that out before pulling the IP (since the engine is already back together). Just hook a voltmeter between engine ground and the rail that connects the glow plugs; then turn the key to on and crank while someone watches the meter.

Based on another post, I'd first remove and inspect the delivery valves. Another member reported broken springs in all delivery valves. That would defeat the "check valve" function of the delivery valve so fuel would just get sucked back as the plunger moves down vs going to the injector.

But if the glow and delivery valves are OK, the IP is the next likely (and costly) suspect. The fact the engine quit suddenly makes me think either something broke or there is an air leak into the diesel fuel feed line.

Yes, the bottom part of the IP is lubed by engine oil. I don't know if there is an oil gallery there or if it's just splash lubed. Your motor has probably sat long enough that the oil dripped off those parts. But the IP tappets are driven by a little cam shaft, just like the valves but it's short with one lobe per injector. The top end (plungers and cylinders) are lubed exclusively by diesel fuel.