glad I asked before i tried. So i guess IF the plunger/gear is in the fuel cutoff position and the vertical slot in the plunger aligns with the feed hole than INDIRECTLY the fuel is coming from the fuel chamber?
thanks again
CK25 will not start
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glad I asked before i tried. So i guess IF the plunger/gear is in the fuel cutoff position and the vertical slot in the plunger aligns with the feed hole than INDIRECTLY the fuel is coming from the fuel chamber?
thanks again
ritcheyvs
Veteran Member
Yup. Check any of those IP diagrams in any of the workskop manuals and you'll see: when the feed hole aligns with the slot, fuel can flow from the feed chamber, through the feed hole, up the slot past the top of the plunger, and right out the top of the IP (if the delivery valve is removed).
But if the delivery value is not removed( as in my case) and IF rack is jammed/stuck in stop position(as I am assuming at this point) then how is any pressure being created to cause delivery valve to open to allow fuel at this nut(valve delivery holder)?
ritcheyvs
Veteran Member
Your analysis is correct. with any plunger in the "fuel off" orientation (normally controlled by the bear and the rack), the plunger will just go up and down without creating any significant pressure at the top of the plunger. That's because any pressure above the plunger is relieved down the slot and pout the feed hole. Actual injection pumping can't begin until the plunger rotates the slot away from the feed hole. Then it will pump on each stroke until the slanted relief slot rises to meet the feed hole (where pressure is again released.
I agree. Look at the EX manuals for our engines. I plan on ordering the correct DK45S manual from Tony tomorrow. Documentation is Kioti's weak point but maybe the new manual will be better, the EX manual sure was.
I agree. Look at the EX manuals for our engines. I plan on ordering the correct DK45S manual from Tony tomorrow. Documentation is Kioti's weak point but maybe the new manual will be better, the EX manual sure was.
I know you feel like you answered this already but I still dont see how econ99 can be getting fuel at this nut (valve delivery holder) when loosened if the delivery valve is still in IP? Is it fuel left over before tractor stopped?
Let me know what tony says about manuals.
thanks Scott
ritcheyvs
Veteran Member
First item: The lift pump pushes fuel into the IP's fuel chamber under, maybe, 20 PSI. When the feed hole aligns with the vertical slot (shutoff condition) this fuel flows through the feed hole, up the slot, and into the delivery chamber (space above the plunger). See #1 and #2 in the photo in post 36. Now, if you crack the nut at the bottom of the delivery valve, that breaks the seal between the IP and delivery valve allowing fuel to flow out (under the 20 PSI of the lift pump). But it takes a lot more than 20 psi to open the delivery valve so nothing will come out if you crack the nut on the top of the delivery valve (which connects the delivery valve to the pipe). And the IP plunger cannot develop higher pressure (like 2000 PSI) because the slot provides an open passage between the delivery chamber and the fuel chamber.
Second: I talked to Tony at length this afternoon and it turns out the "correct" workshop manual for our tractors (pages dated Nov 2004 and back cover dated 2005) shows the old (prior to s/n EC4400209) stop solenoid configuration. Newer manuals that show our SS configuration have transmission (and probably other) data is wrong for our tractors. So, there actually is no manual for our tractors that is right for the engine and transmission. The best option, IMO, is to use the 2004/2005 DK45S shop manual for everything except the engine fuel controls and use the EX 35/40/45/50 manual for the fuel controls. I might add that Tony said our machines are (at least in some ways) superior to later DK45S models (and several hundred pounds heavier) .
I also asked Tony about just removing the SS. He said the SS guide protrudes into the IP, which is why it is lose if the IP and manual stop lever are removed; but it should be secure if only the SS is removed. This agrees with the EX manual that says you can remove just the SS to check injection timing but to use care not to lose the guide if you remove the IP.
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I enjoy the very technical conversation. I wish I was as knowledgeable as all of you. Unfortunately, while I followed most of the conversation. I am lost on what to do next to get the tractor running. Should I be removing the IP and opening it up to examine the guts?
Thanks.
Thanks.
ritcheyvs
Veteran Member
Econ, The fact you get fuel at location #1 but not at #2 (referring to your photo) while cranking means a) fuel is getting to the injection pump (IP) and b) the IP is not pumping. This means either c) the shutoff solenoid is holding the IP rack in the off position or d) the IP rack is jammed internally in the off position. I believe you said you checked the shutoff solenoid and it is OK. So you need to check to see if the IP rack is stuck. There are a couple different configurations but look a cover on the block plate just below the IP. On the newer models the oil fill cap is on this plate. On older models the shaft for the manual and electrical (stop solenoid) engine shutoff runs through this plate. Remove the plate and you should see the fuel control rack pin. Try to move this pin (left and right) using light to moderate force from one or two fingers. If it's working normally, the rack should move smoothly against spring pressure trying to push the rack on the full on (right) position. Possibly, something is jamming the rack and you'll be able to shake it lose. But if the rack stays jammed (you can't move it) the next step will be to remove the IP to see what's causing the jam.
I recommend you use a service manual if you need to remove the IP and also a digital camera to document the exact position of the various levers and springs during each step of IP removal. IP parts are not separately available and a new IP costs over $1000, sorry bout that. However, if the damage is limited to the gear(s) that rotate the plungers and the teeth on the rack are 100% OK, it is possible (someone reported) to disassemble the IP and rotate the damaged gear(s) 180 degrees (so undamaged teeth engage the rack) and reassemble. One caution, the plungers and the cylinders are matched sets so always keep each plunger in the original cylinder.
I recommend you use a service manual if you need to remove the IP and also a digital camera to document the exact position of the various levers and springs during each step of IP removal. IP parts are not separately available and a new IP costs over $1000, sorry bout that. However, if the damage is limited to the gear(s) that rotate the plungers and the teeth on the rack are 100% OK, it is possible (someone reported) to disassemble the IP and rotate the damaged gear(s) 180 degrees (so undamaged teeth engage the rack) and reassemble. One caution, the plungers and the cylinders are matched sets so always keep each plunger in the original cylinder.
Thanks so much Scott,
Had about two weeks of computer troubles. I am at public library now. I also called tony about two days ago and he feels it is fuel related. said he could get manual but would not be any different then what we already have. I think we are going to remove oil fill cap like you instructed econ99 in next reply and see if can move rack pin to determine if rack is stuck before we go any futher. will try to let you know what we find but depends on computer access.
I think your opinion is correct about the manuals.
When we put gauge on fuel line that connects to IP and cranked engine the gauge only gave us 8 psi reading. Not sure if this would effect not enough flow of fuel into IP or not.
Thanks again
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