CK25 will not start

ritcheyvs · Aug 30, 2012

econ99 said:
Well it's time to bring it to the professionals or dump the dang thing. Glow plugs are ok. Re-examined internals of IP. Everything slides back and forth appropriately. Cracked line at cylinder head nearest the firewall. No luck. I just can't get a good flow. No pressure. Really not much coming out only little spurts now and then.

So guess it's time to replace the IP which may be out of my comfort zone. My question is: I know I am going to pay a $1000 dollars or so, but am I putting in another pump that might go in 225hrs (the same amount of hours on tractor now)?

Wondering if I should just sell this thing as is and put a down payment on something else....(bit frustrated).

Thanks for all your help so far.

Econ: reviewing the bidding (correct me if I'm wrong)
1. You verified voltage at the glow plugs with ignition switch both in run and cranking positions.
2. With oil fill flange removed you visually confirmed that the IP rack pin moves from a left/aft position to a right/forward position resting against the governor lever when key is switched from off to run/glow.
3. You removed the delivery valves and confirmed the internal springs and other internal parts were intact.

If all this checked out I'm stumped except there must be an internal IP problem of some sort (fuel goes in but not pumped out). It may be time to check compression for a possible non-fuel problem. Parting thoughts: check IP prices at a Bobcat dealer and save the old IP for parts. Good luck

KiotiDave · Aug 31, 2012

Hi Econ99,
RE" I know I am going to pay a $1000 dollars or so, but am I putting in another pump that might go in 225hrs (the same amount of hours on tractor now)?

Wondering if I should just sell this thing as is and put a down payment on something else....(bit frustrated)."

As I posted above, the injector pump is something you should discuss with your dealer and get him to talk to Kioti about this(if it is the pump), you never know what they may do.
On the other hand we have them completely rebuilt for (Ithink? $390) by our local diesel shop and I have never had to replace one of the rebuilt pumps.
Kioti does look at these on a case by case basis and will at the very least listen to your dealer. It is not normally the fuel that causes this. It is the temperred steel that is brittle in most cases.
Talk to your dealer and get him on board and have him call on your behalf. Kioti is sometimes flexible which a lot of manufacturers are not.
If not...have it rebuilt and don't worry about it.
Dave G.
KiotiDave

ritcheyvs · Aug 31, 2012

econ99 said:
.. No luck. I just can't get a good flow. No pressure. Really not much coming out only little spurts now and then. ....

econ: Please understand that an IP never delivers any substantial "flow" of fuel. This precision "pump" is designed to deliver a very small. precisely measured, amount of fuel to each injector just before the associated piston reaches top dead center on the compression stroke (once every 2 revs). However a healthy IP will produce thousands of PSI (if needed) to push that small amount of fuel through the injector. We're talking drops here. "Little spurts now and then" could well be a description of a healthy IP. But you should see essentially the same behavior from each of the three feeds at the top of the IP or at the injectors. When this thread started, I understood that the fuel feed from the IP was zero, not spurts.

The injectors are designed so they only open after the fuel pressure reaches about 2200 psi. The IP must be able to push out that tiny measured amount under this extreme pressure but it pushes the same tiny amount at zero pressure too.

econ99 · Aug 31, 2012

ritcheyvs said:
Econ: reviewing the bidding (correct me if I'm wrong)
1. You verified voltage at the glow plugs with ignition switch both in run and cranking positions.
2. With oil fill flange removed you visually confirmed that the IP rack pin moves from a left/aft position to a right/forward position resting against the governor lever when key is switched from off to run/glow.
3. You removed the delivery valves and confirmed the internal springs and other internal parts were intact.

If all this checked out I'm stumped except there must be an internal IP problem of some sort (fuel goes in but not pumped out). It may be time to check compression for a possible non-fuel problem. Parting thoughts: check IP prices at a Bobcat dealer and save the old IP for parts. Good luck

Answer to your questions.

1. yes. voltage looked good
2. I did not do it with the key on instead I removed the solenoid when check. Previous I verified that the rod on the solenoid retracts when key on.
3. I did not do this. A previous note suggested that even if the delivery valve were messed up I'd still replace the IP. Do you think I should do this? What's the best way of doing it so I don't have springs all over the place?

As always thank you so much for your help.

ritcheyvs · Aug 31, 2012

econ99 said:
Answer to your questions.

1. yes. voltage looked good
2. I did not do it with the key on instead I removed the solenoid when check. Previous I verified that the rod on the solenoid retracts when key on.
3. I did not do this. A previous note suggested that even if the delivery valve were messed up I'd still replace the IP. Do you think I should do this? What's the best way of doing it so I don't have springs all over the place?

Point well taken. Items 2&3 were intended to verify that the IP was truly bad so you don't waste $$ on a part you don't really need. But going back to your post #36 and the attached photo:
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...230395-ck25-will-not-start-4.html#post2927155

If you get a good fuel flow when you crack B-nut #1 and crank the engine but nothing when you crack B-nut #2 and crank the engine then either the SS is jammed or the IP is bad. But I emphasize, proper "flow" from nut #2 should only be a little "spit" every other turn of the engine. If you get an actual flow from nut #2, the associated delivery valve (probably a broken spring) isn't working right.

It's a shame you can't just replace a $2 spring vs buying an entire $800 IP but that seems to be the way it is unless we find a parts source and/or Diesel shop that will work on these things.

econ99 · Sep 9, 2012

Well I am finally convinced it's the IP. I bought a specialized adapter so I could crack open the middle line at the cylinder head. Nothing.

So. how difficult is it to replace the IP? Is this something better off for the dealer to do? I am ok if I can follow a manual and don't need specialized equipment. Rebuilt a ford 9n back-end and hydraulic pump that way.

Which brings me to the next question where and what shop manual should I get?

Lastly, it was suggested that I look at Bobcat IPs.. what model? Are they 1 for 1 replacement?

Thank you all for you help.

ritcheyvs · Sep 11, 2012

econ99 said:
Well I am finally convinced it's the IP. I bought a specialized adapter so I could crack open the middle line at the cylinder head. Nothing.

So. how difficult is it to replace the IP? Is this something better off for the dealer to do? I am ok if I can follow a manual and don't need specialized equipment. Rebuilt a ford 9n back-end and hydraulic pump that way.

Which brings me to the next question where and what shop manual should I get?

Lastly, it was suggested that I look at Bobcat IPs.. what model? Are they 1 for 1 replacement?

Thank you all for you help.

econ, I delayed answering hoping someone who had done this job would comment first. You might send a private message to dlw1501, sherrym, or stealth8r, who all have recently replaced their IPs, DIY. I personally have not done this job on a tractor.

To address your questions: This job is not difficult compared to many engine jobs; but if you have little or no experience you may create more problems than you solve. Typical hand tools (including torque wrench) should suffice. Recommend the Kioti paper shop manual for your tractor, which may depend on the specific serial number. Any dealer, including several on this list, can order the manual. I think they cost in the vicinity of $75. Bobcat tractors are made by Daedong so many of the parts are common. I'd recommend you look up the correct IP part number on the Kioti online parts site (OEM Parts) and then contact local Kioti and Bobcat dealers for a price check. I can't tell you the specific Bobcat model but shouldn't be hard for the Bobcat dealer to figure out based on HP and transmission type. Finally, if you have a nearby Diesel service shop, they may be able to test and rebuild (if necessary) your old IP for a fraction of the cost of a new one. Sherrym reported that her local Diesel shop wouldn't work on her IP but KiotiDave reported his local Diesel shop fixes IPs for him routinely (he is a dealer).

Only you can decide if this is a DIY job given your experience and equipment.

SSdoxie · Sep 11, 2012

Bobcat equivialnt tractor is CT225 with first 4 digits of serial number A59B. When Kioti changed to CK27, Bobcat left model number the same CT225 but changed the serial number.

econ99 · Sep 12, 2012

Thank you all for the information. I am trying to obtain a copy of the shop manual. After perusing it, I will see if this is something I can do. From the sounds of if, looks like its a DIY project.