Grid-tied solar

[madmax12]

A solar grid is an excellent way to maintain equity in your home. If you can combine various heating and cooling costs, you can use the one that’s cheapest, and most efficient. I have been looking at wind turbines as well. As you say, you will not be held hostage to energy prices any longer. The more interest in solar power the more refined in the development it will become. Also be aware there may be large write off for taxes in your area, so research the state and federal grants, and tax incentives prior to construction, and verify it with the builder.
The cost continues to fall for solar arrays, I have heard they should be able to place the provolative material into roofing tiles within the next couple years. I have also seen some nice articles on water heating and garge heating in Mother earth news that really help keep cost down.
Remember,its your money, the idea is to keep it to yourself.

The roofing tiles already exist, I thought.

 

[Tollster]

The roofing tiles already exist, I thought.

Sorry, perhaps they do, its been a while since I read the acticle.

 

[DarkBlack]

Your home voltages will vary throughout the day as a result of electric producers meeting instant demands on the grid. Most light bulbs burn out because the home voltages exceed 110v and burn out the bulb filiment.

Yeh sure...

 

[DarkBlack]

Dave,

You said it, but I see it 180 derees opposite. I see people seelinf or people buying, tellings other they are doing it to save $$ from big bad grid power. That won't happen as it is today. If sellers and buyers admit it's a fun hobby with a good chance of breaking even or even maybe saving a couple of bucks after 20 years than that's more realistic in the NE. Most successful companies requre a 4 year payback on projetcs. 15-22 is just bad business. If you want to factor in the chance of grid prices going up as a "Pro" points, then you have to factor in the chances that PV costs will go down and/or PV efficincies will go up( which should happen- buy some other tech gadget today and see how it is in 20 years). In that case you loose. You paid all that $ for a Model_T. You might have just bakrolled all that money on a black and white TV, and you need to keep it for 20 years to get your money back.

 

[sdkubota]

We have 300 years of coal, natural gas and crude oil...I'll look at the "green" solutions when the fossil fuels run low. There are more proven oil, natural gas, and coal reserves now than ever before in history and they are making new huge discoveries all the time.

 

[DarkBlack]

The beauty of coal, oil, etc, is that the sun's energy has already been stored in the material from past years of transformation. . With solar you are starting with no energy.

 

[dave1949]

Dave,

You said it, but I see it 180 derees opposite. I see people seelinf or people buying, tellings other they are doing it to save $$ from big bad grid power. That won't happen as it is today. If sellers and buyers admit it's a fun hobby with a good chance of breaking even or even maybe saving a couple of bucks after 20 years than that's more realistic in the NE. Most successful companies requre a 4 year payback on projetcs. 15-22 is just bad business. If you want to factor in the chance of grid prices going up as a "Pro" points, then you have to factor in the chances that PV costs will go down and/or PV efficincies will go up( which should happen- buy some other tech gadget today and see how it is in 20 years). In that case you loose. You paid all that $ for a Model_T. You might have just bakrolled all that money on a black and white TV, and you need to keep it for 20 years to get your money back.

Well, I might have bought a Model T, but thinking about it, what else could be expected? Technology does not stand still. If something comes on the market five years from now that is greatly superior to today's products, that's the breaks. I won't feel bad or foolish because I could have had this or that. The fact remains that my Model T will get me to where I want to go at little to no cost, and it is taking me there now, not maybe five years from now.

If we get depressed, remorseful, jealous, resentful, or whatever the emotion is, every time a new product eclipses something we currently own and have to keep owning, our unhappiness is due to self-inflicted materialism.

Fortunately, I am not a business whose life depends upon ROI within a certain time frame. I don't know that the comparison is really a valid one. The relatively short time frames business operate under do not always result in good things, no matter how expedient they may be.

I appreciate you sharing your view point, but we do think differently about it. That's okay, please keep sharing your views.

 

[whirly]

We have 300 years of coal, natural gas and crude oil...I'll look at the "green" solutions when the fossil fuels run low. There are more proven oil, natural gas, and coal reserves now than ever before in history and they are making new huge discoveries all the time.

They said pretty much the same thing when cars were first introduced. Cars were not a plausible solution for transport for most folks because of the initial cost and the first cars were ... pretty much crap. It took mass production, marketing and low pricing to get the horse out of the barn and that is what it will take to get solar on all of our roofs.

Technology is always slow in it's initial development and even slower in its adaptation by the general masses. The PC didn't take off until IBM made a machine that was an open architecture and could be reproduced (copied). Now everyone has some sort of computer even if it's just their microwave or wristwatch.

Those of us who can find a current value in solar will adopt it now and the rest will eventually find a price/benefit break-point down the road.

The simple fact that the industry has found simpler uses for solar panels is encouraging. That means that folks can have a small (low wattage) solar panel and battery for security lighting or hot wire fences or gate openers without having to string or bury wire all over their property. It also means that the companies producing these panels will continue to look for more economical methods of production, higher wattage output and hence less cost to the consumer.

 

[meburdick]

Why do I need to replace my system in 20 years? I expect a hit in efficiency, but they are not just going to quit in 20 years. My panels are warrantied efficiency 90%/12years, 80%/25years. It's not like they just drop to 0%.

Having been in hi-tech industry for the last 28 years, I imagine in 18 years when my panels and inverter turn 20, that technology will have jumped ahead. I'm not confidant that solar panel wafer development will follow Moore's Law, but I expect they will improve significantly.

Still, it is not like at 20 years I have to start over.

I agree that Moore's law doesn't seem to hold with PV, and may not apply for the future either. Where were these panels in terms of their abilities 20 years ago? Are we 2^10 times better today than we were then? I don't think we're even 2-4x where we were then. For some reason, this technology hasn't been developing at a very fast pace.

It's true that there are plenty of folks with panels that are over 20 years old and still clunking along. But, then again, there are also people with 20 year old refrigerators that are nowhere near as energy efficient as the ones today. Warranties are developed after careful study by actuaries. They manufacturers will replace only a small portion of the panels for warranty reasons within 20 years. But, once that time period has gone past, the failure rate goes up substantially (failure includes significant drops in efficiencies). Think about it... You're dealing with a product whose sole purpose is to bake in the sun.

Your time in the tech space will allow you to appreciate the amount of stress that they must undergo *every single day* because of the heat/cool cycle by being in the sun and then in the dark. That's the sort of things that destroys electronics.

No, I think we are in agreement. When I wrote "6 cords with an out of pocket price of $100" I meant $100/cord.
The link was the first one that turned up when I googled firewood prices in Connecticut. In Mississippi prices are more like $150 to $175/cord.

Your math and prices:
6 cords of wood in log lengths @ $100/cord
other costs $50
Total out of pocket cost about $650.
You wrote
Indicating that the couple of hours per cord to split and stack was worth $50 for 6 cords ($700 minus $650). So your time is worth about $4.50/hr, and includes a hefty investment in equipment.

Even down here in Mississippi it's hard to get someone to cut logs, split the wood and stack it for $10/hr, much less $4.50/hour. Especially when they provide their own equipment!

With oil, natural gas, LPG, electricity, etc. most people do not include allowance for extra work on their part to get it to the heating system, because there is very little extra work.

Those of us that burn wood tend to ignore that extra work, hey, it's exercise. But if for example you damage your foot and can't walk the difference between flipping the switch and hauling wood to the fire becomes real evident real fast. As does the 2 hours per cord to cut, split, and stack.

Wood definitely has it's place in the home energy cycle if you have an easy inexpensive source. That's why I'm investigating gasification.

I've got trees I have to get rid of, they are in the way. So I make them into lumber, then I still have a bunch of waste left over, I want to make that into heat and maybe electricity. But it is a lot of work compared to flipping a switch and using a PV system.

I consider my time and effort to be "sweat equity". It's exactly the same as buying a house that needs work then *doing* the work. When you're done, you've created significant value. With a house, it's in the resale. With wood burning where I do a lot of the work, it's in being able to spend that money on other things that I might not be able to do myself.

My equipment investment is an up-front cost, but the equipment has residual value. Install a $50,000 solar system on your house and try to sell it the very next day... I'm guessing you immediately lose half. Five years later, half again. After 10, it's "worthless" except for anything you might be able to get as scrap.

If I could spend $30,000 on a solar system, run it for 10 years, save $3000 / year on my electric bill, then sell it for $8,000 - $10,000 - I'd be looking at it very seriously. Those numbers are pretty darn close to the reality of what my system to burn wood is. Unfortunately, the solar investment is more like $25,000 investment, save $1500 / year on the bill (maybe), and zero residual value after 20 years (assuming it lasts that long and I still live in the house - my tractor, splitter, and saws are all "portable" to my next house).

 

[BobRip]

If efficiency was always the driving force behind energy use, we wouldn't be driving cars powered by gasoline engines.

QUOTE]
the more

You have to consider efficiency in correct context. Gasoline engine uses fuel you have to pay for. Solar panels use free energy. If they are less efficient you just build the system bigger. Efficiency of solar panels matters too. The more efficient they are the cheaper they will be because of the bulk of the cost is the cost of the silicon crystal they are made of. At the end all what matters is bang for the buck. How much energy it produces relative to the cost of the system.
The solar system is very upfront loaded investment but if you finance it and the loan payment is about the same as you energy bill ( due to currently very favorable interest rates) it in effect costs you nothing. And you are not hostage to energy cost increase.

The more efficient the solar cells are, the smaller and lighter the total system will be. This lowers installation, support structure, and shipping cost. Also less area is needed to have good sunlight on. Efficiency is important.

Is anyone concerned that the 20 year warranty will not be covered when the supplier goes under? Several companies have already gone under.