Tier 4 is comming... now is the time to get off the fence!

[Hollow]

IMO it would be better to VOTE this year for those in favor of less regulations especially those coming from the EPA. Like most federal agencies they have done some good but they can't control themselves either and are making all of us suffer the consequences of their actions. End of rant.

Amen!

 

[dave1949]

Cummins Every Time - Off-Highway - Tier 4 Off-Highway - Tier 4 Final

http://www.empire-cat.com/cm/upload...stems/Emissions_Solutions/Empire_Tier4Mlr.pdf

CAT and Cummins claim a 4 or 5 percent increase in fuel efficiency in Tier 4 Final. Deere says it will be the same as Tier 3.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

Cummins Every Time - Off-Highway - Tier 4 Off-Highway - Tier 4 Final

http://www.empire-cat.com/cm/upload...stems/Emissions_Solutions/Empire_Tier4Mlr.pdf

CAT and Cummins claim a 4 or 5 percent increase in fuel efficiency in Tier 4 Final. Deere says it will be the same as Tier 3.

Deere's response is a sales pitch of their weird type of Tier4. (they went a different route than everyone else). Anyone running a DEF system is getting a real fuel gain that Deere may not want to admit. They are changing course on that now.

 

[crazyal]

Cummins Every Time - Off-Highway - Tier 4 Off-Highway - Tier 4 Final

http://www.empire-cat.com/cm/upload...stems/Emissions_Solutions/Empire_Tier4Mlr.pdf

CAT and Cummins claim a 4 or 5 percent increase in fuel efficiency in Tier 4 Final. Deere says it will be the same as Tier 3.

I read the Cummings statement and all I read was that customers will see a increase in fuel efficiency between Tier 4 interm and tier 4 final. Also they talk about an increase in efficiency between tier 3 and tier 4. But I failed to find where Cummings is saying that tier 4 is as good as before these standards came out.

The CAT pr release I stopped reading when they tried to say that equipment operators would be fined by local and state agencies for using equipment made before these requirements came out. I laughed when they actually tried to say owners of older equipment could face legal challenges unless they upgraded.

If you want proof just go over to the truck and trailer section of TBN and ask what people have found out in the real world operation of diesel trucks. I have a coworker that the day his warranty ran out he modified his 2008 F250. He went from 11.5 mpg up to 16 mpg. To me seeing the average fuel mileage increase after the modifications is more proof than a company press release saying how much better off you will be with the new engines.

 

[D7E]

Deere's response is a sales pitch of their weird type of Tier4. (they went a different route than everyone else). Anyone running a DEF system is getting a real fuel gain that Deere may not want to admit. They are changing course on that now.

Not the first time deere have done that either is it !

 

[davewade]

Sorry. As I approach my sixth decade, I realize that anybody that wants to hop in a time machine and go back to the good ol' days has their glasses smogged up.

In the 70's cars didn't start in the winter, the cities were smogged something awful, lead was spewed into the air, jets airplanes were deafeningly loud, full of cigarette smoke with crashes in the news on a regular basis.

Thank god for Tricky Nixon, who created the EPA.

 

[CBW1999]

Sorry. As I approach my sixth decade, I realize that anybody that wants to hop in a time machine and go back to the good ol' days has their glasses smogged up.

In the 70's cars didn't start in the winter, the cities were smogged something awful, lead was spewed into the air, jets airplanes were deafeningly loud, full of cigarette smoke with crashes in the news on a regular basis.

Thank god for Tricky Nixon, who created the EPA.

Good points. I believe that everyone has their own interpretation of "the good ol' days" based on...well........the GOOD 'ol days. Important to remember all aspects of history, good and bad. Fits well with the statement- Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it-

I think we also need to look back in context at WHY the EPA was created and if it is still following that mission. EPA aside, there can be a lot of discussion on organizations that have broadened their scope of interest and action while losing site of the original objective.

 

[oldballs]

Sorry. As I approach my sixth decade, I realize that anybody that wants to hop in a time machine and go back to the good ol' days has their glasses smogged up.

In the 70's cars didn't start in the winter, the cities were smogged something awful, lead was spewed into the air, jets airplanes were deafeningly loud, full of cigarette smoke with crashes in the news on a regular basis.

Golly, I'm 80 and our old clunkers and newer ones started year 'round. We lived by the steel mill and railroad switch yards and burned coal as well in the house with some soot true, yet the air was pretty clean. And our house was painted with the lead, but we didn't try to eat the house. There weren't any jets, the airport was right down town. Cigarettes were a means to learn tolerance of our neighbor/parents...as though I, myself had no bad habits. A few crashes around town and on the US hyways did occur but hours long pile ups didn't happen. And finally, murder was rare as well as the fact that kids played in the street and anywhere else without molestation. I'll take the good ole days anytime...along with a few of the improvements.

 

[dave1949]

This public health EPA origins and overview, written in 1988, is interesting.
Looking Backward: A Historical Perspective on Environmental Regulations | About EPA | US EPA

To some extent, questioning the "mission" of the EPA is a political foil for avoiding the message contained in the science. Recent administrations also politicized science by appointing political operatives to head federal agencies, who in-turn loaded up their staffs with like minded people. The actual scientists were not even allowed to publish or comment on their work without it being cleared by their politically motivated managers. I am not certain if that has improved, I hope so.

Whatever your personal leanings on the issues surrounding the EPA, tax payers have paid for and deserve factual science, not politically filtered science. We can discuss the implications of the science and make our choices--if we know what the true facts are. Making decisions on "flavored" and "filtered" facts is national suicide.

 

[Ductape]

Whatever your personal leanings on the issues surrounding the EPA, tax payers have paid for and deserve factual science, not politically filtered science. We can discuss the implications of the science and make our choices--if we know what the true facts are. Making decisions on "flavored" and "filtered" facts is national suicide.

I couldn't agree with you more. The problem is....... I can't recall much 'recent' science that is NOT politically motivated. Science doesn't seem to be very black and white anymore.

 

[ultrarunner]

When the US went to unleaded gas did they add 3000 bucks to the car price?

No... a modest new car didn't even cost $3000 back then... Neighbor bought a new Ford Maverick with a cat for $2400 out the door.

 

[CBW1999]

Very well said.

 

[dave1949]

I think we hijacked Neil Messick's post. I wish I was in the market for a new tractor, now is the time to get off the fence if you are That's a fair heads-up.

 

[TripleR]

I think we hijacked Neil Messick's post. I wish I was in the market for a new tractor, now is the time to get off the fence if you are That's a fair heads-up.

That is one of the reasons we decided to buy this year rather than wait, we traded in a really nice L5030 HSTC for a L5740 HSTC, the L5030 was gone in less than a week; guy bought it for his wife.

 

[kuboman]

Anyone who doubts the added cost of all this emission crap just needs to price out a new 500hp 4x4 tractor. Cost went up anywhere from 15-$25000. That is a lot of money that will never be recouped by the owner. All this tier 3-4 business has put a huge burden on the anyone that has to burn diesel to earn a living. It will all catch up to us and it is just one of many reasons the economy is languishing.

 

[Kubota 2007]

I purchased a New Kubota last summer L4740, last week I called for an air filter, because of my tractor being a tier III the Air Filter is $80.00, if it was an older L4740(Tier I or II) the air filter would cost $25 or $30. I'm a truck mechanic, the new trucks are arriving Tier IV, the Exhaust/Cat Converters are thousands of dollars to replace,(we have had a few damaged and had to replace them) the increased cost adding DEF will and have raised the cost and purchased price. It's easy to say"The Sky is falling", it's not falling but the clouds are getting lower.

 

[Geneha]

Well I just purchased about 2 months ago a 2000 B7500 Kubota w/770 hrs. I guess a new larger tractor will not be in my future for a long time. I guess this little smoker will have to do.

My new motto. Smoke, Stink and Rattle.

 

[aczlan]

Well I just purchased about 2 months ago a 2000 B7500 Kubota w/770 hrs. I guess a new larger tractor will not be in my future for a long time. I guess this little smoker will have to do.
My new motto. Smoke, Stink and Rattle.

Congrats on the B7500. We have one as well and it is a hard working machine.

Aaron X

 

[Gator6x4]

I am sure the Tier IV standards will bring changes. I think a lot of the information flying around at this time is highly speculative. How does someone know what maintenance will be required when manufactures have not released what they are or will be.

I think a lot of it has to do with manufacture and dealer hype to insure or make a sale of existing stock and justify price increases on new stock. I remember the same hype when automobile manufactures were switching from a carburetor to throttle body and then to multi point fuel injection. Anyone want to revert back to the days of a stumbling, jumbling poor mileage carburetor on their automobile?

I say we need to wait until some actual facts are provided by manufactures and dealers for review before we condemn Tier IV in the court of speculative opinion.

I say we also walk away from a purchase when a demand for several thousand dollars more is made for a tractor simply because a fifteen cent part was added. The day of me making myself a victim because of manufacture or dealer hype is over. Let the dealer and manufacture keep the products they are demanding exorbitant amounts for because an engineering change was made to an existing product. Remember, the diesel engine has existed for hundreds of years, so it was not re-invented just something added to clean up the exhaust.

I think after a few months of the manufactures and the dealers enjoying the yard decorations prices will reach realistic levels.

 

[jinman]

I love fuel injection on gasoline vehicles. I think if it were not for smog reduction and EPA requirements, we'd still be driving vehicles using carburetors and inefficient fuel/air mixtures. When fuel injection started appearing on cars, it was accompanied with a large price increase. However, in the long run, I think fuel injection has been great for fuel economy and reliability. Between fuel injection and high energy ignitions, the tune-up mileage for most cars is every 100k mi. instead of every 15k miles. I DO NOT miss the days of changing points, plugs, and doing carburetor adjustments or fixing stuck floats that dumped raw fuel onto the top of a hot engine. I will lead the cheers for electronic fuel injection, electronic ignition, and performance control computers. When you could buy 4 gallons of gas for $1, it was fine to push those big block fuel guzzlers up and down the road, but I thank my lucky stars that all my vehicles get 20+ mpg today.

I don't know if DEF and Tier 4 will lead to improvements in diesels that can be compared to improvements in gasoline engines. If it does, the first generation will seem more costly and will see lots of resistance. I don't think diesels ever showed performance problems like gassers prior to fuel injection/elec. ignitions. However, if these restrictions drive innovations in diesels that compare to gasoline engine improvements, I'm very excited about the future of diesels. The jury is still out in my opinion. . .:confused3: