Future of New Holland Utility and Compact tractor line.

[Robert_in_NY]

How about a last tractor builder standing for SMALL commercial Ag market? Is there a current manufacturer that builds something equivalent to the old Ford 600/800 series or MF 35, etc.? I am thinking a 2WD tractor in that 30-40 hp range with 28" rear tires that aren't too wide (12.4 or 11.2), draft control, and where you can adjust the wheel spacing like the old Fords/MF's from ~52-72 inches? It's getting kind of old to have to be looking for these antiques and then pour time and money in to get them reliable for everyday work.

Case-IH has the Farmall 45A and 55A and there are blue siblings as well. My 45A is exactly like you are looking for. 45 engine horse, 11.2-28 rear tires (trying to recall from memory) 2wd, adjustable wheel spacing and a great basic tractor. I replaced my old ford 640 with a 45A and other than sitting higher because of the flat deck platform their very similar.

 

[GManBart]

That's actually not the case, when things wash out (dealer participation in financing, floor plan costs, etc) the cost is about the same. As-is the warranty. I got my hands on some LS dealer price sheets from a friend before we started selling them.

I wasn't talking about dealer costs, I was talking about consumer costs. If I was a NH dealer, I wouldn't be too happy to be losing business for the same basic machine, to the OEM, who's selling them for significantly less. A number of folks here have asked their local NH dealer if they could get close to the price of the equivalent LS, and they always say that they can't. So, either they're telling the truth, or they're losing a sale in order to maintain the elevated pricing they've set. That can't be a good situation for a dealer to be in.

Most of the complaints are not them blowing apart and being horrible tractors. Its that next to the old Shiubaru\ISM models they are a step backwards in terms of fit, finish, noise, etc. So when our existing customers come in looking for an upgrade, we offer them what is a step backwards in many ways. Its not a bad tractor, we do sell them and they do okay for our customers. It is a less expensive machine and there are some good values. Its just 10-15 years behind the industry leaders technologically.

You know, this is pretty funny, taken on the whole. What happened to "They are just not very good machines"? How do you go from that to saying they aren't bad, do okay for your customers, and are some good values?

When I was looking for a third tractor, I looked at a LOT of 5-15yr old New Holland/Fords (they're popular here in Ford country). I wasn't even remotely impressed with the fit, finish, layout, ergonomics, and features in comparison to my LS, and that was giving them credit for wear and tear. In many ways they seemed, and felt, cheap, even if they ran well. To suggest a current LS is only the equivalent of a 10-15 year old tractor (assuming it were in new condition) from the industry leaders is funny?seriously, if there were tractor humor, that would be a winner.

 

[RKJeepXJ]

I wasn't talking about dealer costs, I was talking about consumer costs. If I was a NH dealer, I wouldn't be too happy to be losing business for the same basic machine, to the OEM, who's selling them for significantly less. A number of folks here have asked their local NH dealer if they could get close to the price of the equivalent LS, and they always say that they can't. So, either they're telling the truth, or they're losing a sale in order to maintain the elevated pricing they've set. That can't be a good situation for a dealer to be in.

That was my experience. New Holland dealer, while much closer to my house, was $5K higher for a Boomer 50 with the same options as my LS 4047H. For that kind of money, I gladly went with the dealer 20 more miles away that has just as good, if not better, of a reputation as my local New Holland dealer.

 

[eagle107]

You know, this is pretty funny, taken on the whole. What happened to "They are just not very good machines"? How do you go from that to saying they aren't bad, do okay for your customers, and are some good values?

When I was looking for a third tractor, I looked at a LOT of 5-15yr old New Holland/Fords (they're popular here in Ford country). I wasn't even remotely impressed with the fit, finish, layout, ergonomics, and features in comparison to my LS, and that was giving them credit for wear and tear. In many ways they seemed, and felt, cheap, even if they ran well. To suggest a current LS is only the equivalent of a 10-15 year old tractor (assuming it were in new condition) from the industry leaders is funny?seriously, if there were tractor humor, that would be a winner.

Why are you always getting so bent out of shape when someone has a different opinion than yours about LS tractors? It seem like you are have to justify why "LS" so darn superior over everything else; it is starting to get really old. Does LS make a good tractor, yes they do. Messick's provided you their opinion about the new LS made Boomers, just accept it and move on. I have owned many Shibauras in the past, in my opinion, after comparing the two, which I have, I find the Shibauras to be a nicer tractor than LS model Boomers. But again, that is my opinion and I know we will not be in agreement, but that is OK. Shibaura has been making compact tractors for Ford and New Holland since around 1973/1974 and many of those models held up well over the years. Time will tell if the LS Boomer models will be as good or if they fall apart in ten years; right now the LS Boomer models are only 2 to 3 years old under the New Holland umbrella.

 

[GManBart]

Why are you always getting so bent out of shape when someone has a different opinion than yours about LS tractors?

I'm not remotely "bent out of shape", in any way. You're making an assumption, and reading inflection, tone, and attitude into the written word, which rarely works well. It really is possible to ask someone a direct question without it being an emotional event.

It seem like you are have to justify why "LS" so darn superior over everything else; it is starting to get really old.

First off, I have never said LS was superior to anything else, so that statement is totally false. Second, you have every right to ignore me, and anything I post…in fact, if that would make you happier, I encourage it. I'm not attacking you, so there's no need to attack me (it's also against the rules here, FYI).

Does LS make a good tractor, yes they do.

Don't worry, I won't tell anyone you said that. :thumbsup:

Messick's provided you their opinion about the new LS made Boomers, just accept it and move on.

That isn't what happened. They provided two completely different opinions, one saying "they just aren't a very good tractor" and one saying they do "okay" and have some "good values". That's funny….seriously. Messick's is a big name dealer, who you would think knows what they're talking about. How can they make two completely contradictory statements like that with any credibility?

I have owned many Shibauras in the past, in my opinion, after comparing the two, which I have, I find the Shibauras to be a nicer tractor than LS model Boomers.

That's great, and I've never said Shibaura made a bad product, or anything like that. All I've said that was comparing a new LS/NH Boomer to a 15 year old Shibaura would be a no contest in my book….all tractors seem to have come a long way in refinement and features in that time.

Any time the NH/LS connection comes up, a handful of folks seem to be terribly offended, but that's just reality. Are they perfect? No. Do they appear to be a good value? Yeah, it seems that way, even at NH's elevated prices.

 

[TSO]

I just want to point out that since MessickFarmEqu is a dealer, his opinion SHOULD lean a little more toward factual content than just personal feelings (that's my opinion anyways ). When he says something about a product he sells, and states "it's not a very good machine," I'd like to think he should be expected to explain his statements.

And I would truly like to know all the negative things about the LS built Boomers ... Especially the problems (if any) that customers have found, and what, in particular, makes them them worse than the Shibaura models. I'd also like to know what makes them 10-15 years behind technologically, compared to others.

I won't be offended if/when he points out negatives ... It's a tractor, not my kid lol.

 

[eagle107]

I'm not remotely "bent out of shape", in any way. You're making an assumption, and reading inflection, tone, and attitude into the written word, which rarely works well. It really is possible to ask someone a direct question without it being an emotional event.

The problem is when you write you do reflect a tone. Remember there is such as thing as a writing voice and a talking voice. People can misconstrue the talking voice much more than the writing voice. The writing voice will give a more balanced approach to your comments. Just reading a lot of your comments at times sound cutting/snide, which makes you sound like you are "bent out of shape."

I'm not attacking you, so there's no need to attack me (it's also against the rules here, FYI).

I have to admit you spar well. What I said here is not against the rules. I simply made an observation, not an attack.

Don't worry, I won't tell anyone you said that. :thumbsup:

Why not, I have said it before and will say it again in the future. The debate we have had in the past were if the components were as good as the other manufacturers.

That isn't what happened. They provided two completely different opinions, one saying "they just aren't a very good tractor" and one saying they do "okay" and have some "good values". That's funny….seriously. Messick's is a big name dealer, who you would think knows what they're talking about. How can they make two completely contradictory statements like that with any credibility?

You can discuss that one with Messick.

That's great, and I've never said Shibaura made a bad product, or anything like that. All I've said that was comparing a new LS/NH Boomer to a 15 year old Shibaura would be a no contest in my book….all tractors seem to have come a long way in refinement and features in that time.

Any time the NH/LS connection comes up, a handful of folks seem to be terribly offended, but that's just reality. Are they perfect? No. Do they appear to be a good value? Yeah, it seems that way, even at NH's elevated prices.

You misinterpreted my statement. There is nothing here about Shibaura or LS making bad products. This is about an opinion. In my opinion, I tend to like the Shibaura tractors' features and functionality over the LS tractors' features and functionality. You have the opposite opinion. That is it.

 

[GManBart]

The problem is when you write you do reflect a tone. Remember there is such as thing as a writing voice and a talking voice. People can misconstrue the talking voice much more than the writing voice. The writing voice will give a more balanced approach to your comments. Just reading a lot of your comments at times sound cutting/snide, which makes you sound like you are "bent out of shape."

That is your perception, and if it bothers you, there really isn't anything I can do about it other than to suggest you ignore me. There is zero need for you to make this thread about me, and how you don't like what, or how I say things.

I have to admit you spar well. What I said here is not against the rules. I simply made an observation, not an attack.

Going out of your way to address the fact that you don't like the way a poster writes something to someone else, in a thread you weren't previously involved in comes pretty close to the bickering, arguing, attacking conduct that is prohibited. You didn't have anything constructive to add to the thread…it was simply jumping on me, and the way I post.

You can discuss that one with Messick.

That's what I was trying to do when you butted in.

 

[GManBart]

I'd also like to know what makes them 10-15 years behind technologically, compared to others.

That's exactly what I'd like to know. "Modern" tractors are pretty simple machines compared to things like automobiles. Everything about them is simple….big, strong, engineered to do a ton of work, but not really complicated. I don't see any huge advances in the mechanical aspects of tractors….wow, some brands went from dry disc, to wet disc brakes….wow, it's a revolution!

Sure, fuel injection systems have changed a little, or at least some more modern versions are available, and some engine management, and transmission management electronics have been developed, but that's not really core capabilities as far as I'm concerned. They're cool, and sometimes really handy, but I'm still not seeing that as 10-15 years in difference between the brands in question.

I would love for someone like Messick's to comment on the specific things they see as being 10-15 years better…but every time that sort of topic comes up, nobody will ever give specifics. You'd think that would be a ho-brainer if you were trying to sell your product…regardless of brand. Show the consumer why yours is better…and not just the fluff.

 

[daugen]

some background thoughts: more features, hydrostatic, low speed pto, 48 speeds, they all are nice to have, and the cabs are getting quieter and more comfortable. Seats are finally getting better. Safety is improved slightly perhaps due to some electronic nannies keeping you from stalling out at a very wrong time.

But can you live without all that? Most of the world does...
A 15 year old JD or Kubota are hardly antiquated. 1998 still seems "modern" to me.
But some, maybe many of us chase the latest features, and the manufacturers are working hard
coming up with new ones to add more profit per unit.
I should know, I bought most of them on my tractor. And am thoroughly satisfied with it, though I did manage to stall it once on the no-stall setting.

I grew up with a JD B. Tricycle front, you hung on to that sturdy wheel for dear life at times. Now there's a level of tech I'm sure we are all glad is past, though collecting the older stuff is fun. But fifties tech is nothing like eighties tech, and certainly not 1998. As long as the tractor is reliable and performs well, and you aren't trying to farm a thousand acres with everything gps controlled, I'm not sure most of us really need all the latest features. I find those electronic armrest "command posts" pretty intimidating on larger tractors.

Simple can be good, and simple can be easily learned and taught.

the dollar value concerns reminds me of Ford and Mercury. Except this time the same sedan isn't just a few grand more, Ford is trying to sell the Mercury at a Lincoln price and folks are questioning the value.
Sorry if this didn't add anything.