Walkout Basement Entrance Re-Do

[jrdepew]

All,

I have a ranch with a walkout basement in rainy upstate NY. When the house was first built there was a basement garage entrance and the original owner parked his car in the basement. At some point in the past, the garage door was removed, the opening was framed in with 2x4's, and a large set of double doors was installed. These operate like french doors, so there is a huge opening when both are open. This is very nice for moving large objects in/out of the basement. There is also a covered walkway over the door leading to the garage about 8' away. The problem I noticed since I bought the house is that heavy driving rain will still soak the doors and the water weeps under the door frame and wooden frame around it. I can now see mold starting at the bottom of the framing. Finally, the way the door is anchored is poor at best, and the doors to not feel sturdy when closing them. All in all...this was a little bit of a hack job.

This spring I want to replace the moldy 2x4 framing and weak door with a sturdier, more weatherproof setup. My plan right now is to rip the whole existing assembly out. Depending on how the bottom plate was mounted to the concrete, I may be drilling holes and dropping anchors to attach the new bottom plate. Here is my initial plan and some questions:

1. Use all 2x6 framing, so I can better insulate and have a sturdier structure when complete.

2. To seal the base board, I was going to use closed cell foam that is sold for sealing rim-joists in new construction laid down first. Should I skip the foam and use a sealing adhesive here instead? Foam and adhesive? I am mostly worried about sealing against water intrusion at this gap.

3. For the base board, should I just use 2x6PT pine? Alternatively, I could use a piece of plastic decking like azek, then a piece of PT pine on top. This would ensure that no wood was coming into constant contact with water. The rest of the framing will most likely be 2x6PT since this is a relatively small area to frame and I want to avoid any chance of mold. I have never framed with metal studs before, but this may be a good application?

4. Insulation...I was going to use foam board cut to fit the joist cavities and then glued in place with greatstuff foam. Again...nothing to stay wet and get moldy.

5. Doors...I am lost here. I would like to stay with the current style of door if possible, as the wide opening is very nice when I am carrying coal into the basement, carrying wood into the basement. Does anyone have any good suggestions on a nice set of exterior steel clad double doors?

6. Exterior...currently this is painted T111 style siding. I am fine with this look and the siding seems to be holding up very well...I will know more once I start working. I think siding to match the house would look bad here..and I am not sure what else I could use to be honest.

Any other materials I could use to frame/insualte/etc? I am really open to suggestions here and since I will be pulling the current framing out I will be starting from scratch with a concrete floor and poured concrete walls. I have even been pondering doing masonry. Again, this is in the very initial planning stages and I would like to begin in spring once we can get a string of warmer days.

I will get some pictures of the area posted up soon.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
Joe

 

[mjcountrybumpkin]

Seal plate with 100% pure silicon. Frame with pt 2x6. Sheat with a 50 year flooring rated osb. Then use standard fiber insulation. Use mold resistant Sheetrock on interior. Not sure on a door in your area, manufactures vary greatly from region to region, but I'm sure your local hardware could help you with a quality door. I have been contracting for 12 years. This is over building so you don't have to worry about doing it again

 

[dave1949]

Any reasonable way to keep the rain off that area?

Maybe a small porch-type roof of some sort, or if it is coming from the roof, a diverter bar on the roof that sends the run-off to the sides.

How is the (former) driveway grade? Is there a good slope down and away from that area, or would installing a drain help?

 

[/pine]

When you say "base board" are you referring to the bottom/shoe plate of the framed walls?...If so I would not use typical silicone/acrylic based sealants...unless the PT has been kiln dried AFTER it was treated...I would be inclined to use a bitumen based sealant...JMO...

 

[dave1949]

Re-read your post.

It might be a good idea to build a low masonry wall about two blocks high. If you have the ceiling headroom, you could even consider setting the door on the wall, or a one-block high section of wall even, and build some steps outside.

A framed wall basically at grade height is a real challenge for durability. Not saying it can't be done, but my first choices would be keep it dry or keep it high. :laughing:

I used to have an entry door at sidewalk-height on a two story north wall with a 1' overhang. Those situations ought to be avoided is what my experience taught me.

 

[BuilderML]

Once you post a picture i'll let you know what i think should be done. Is the concrete floor flush with the face of the exterior wall or does the slab act as a shelf on the exterior?

 

[jrdepew]

Here are the pictures. As you can see, the driveway is gravel and seems to drain very well and is level. I do not think any of the water is getting in that way. However, there are two grass banks that approach the doorway that I know I am getting water from. Rain water runs down these banks and past the bottom plate.

Inside shot, notice the mold near the lower portions of the drywall:








Thanks,
Joe

 

[dave1949]

That's not at all what I pictured.

I would remove the dirt that wraps around the door wall. Looks like you could use retaining walls on each end with good drainage behind them.

 

[forgeblast]

I would look and see if there are any drainage lines under the gravel by the door. (Our house the original owner put a gutter drain right across the front of the door. It would fill up and get into the house. I moved it out into the yard and we have no issues now.

 

[jrdepew]

That's not at all what I pictured.

I would remove the dirt that wraps around the door wall. Looks like you could use retaining walls on each end with good drainage behind them.

Retaining walls are definitely in the future plans...the money tree can't seem to keep up with all the projects! Just finished a bathroom remodel and finished a deck (still needs railings) this summer. :drink:

I was looking at the dirt and think I could reshape the banks to move water away from the house instead of towards the door without too much work. That will be part of the plan come spring when I tackle this project.

Thanks!

 

[Ken45101]

Is the concrete below the door sloped away from the house, or is it level? IOW, does water running down the door drain away, or sit there? If it is not sloped away, the first thing I would do is grind it down at an angle so that they water wants to move away.

 

[jrdepew]

Is the concrete below the door sloped away from the house, or is it level? IOW, does water running down the door drain away, or sit there? If it is not sloped away, the first thing I would do is grind it down at an angle so that they water wants to move away.

The water definitely sits. I can see where they repaired the concrete at the door entrance...they must have kept it level instead of sloping it away from the floor at this point.

What is the best way to grind the concrete down to slope slightly away from the door?

Thanks,
Joe

 

[Coyote machine]

More and clearer pics are needed to properly access what you need to do. Basic concept is to run all water away from the area, as much as possible. Regrade the banks that allow water to flow toward the doors and install drainage at the door entry to take any remaining water away. What /pine said about sealers and using a Grace Ice/Water Shield product with pressure treated framing lumber. Azek isn't suited to a shoe plate; you'd be better off using proper flashing to keep rainwater/moisture from penetrating the envelope.
Until you resolve your drainage issues you will be throwing money at materials and problems that will continue to plague you. You have lots of time to plan out this project and do it right once with the right materials. Personally I would use a good quality fiberglass door instead of metal, most likely.
Give us some short distance pics of the area so we can help access the drainage issues.
BTW, you might be able to install a grate/trough in front of the doors to collect and carry away water.

 

[Ken45101]

The water definitely sits. I can see where they repaired the concrete at the door entrance...they must have kept it level instead of sloping it away from the floor at this point.

What is the best way to grind the concrete down to slope slightly away from the door?



Thanks,
Joe

Before I would do any work, I would definitely grind it down to a point underneath the new frame. There may be other alternatives, but an angle grinder with a concrete disk would work. For the amount you have to do, it may be worth renting a larger grinder.

 

[jrdepew]

Here are some better pictures. I do not think that any of the water is coming from accumulation in the gravel in front of the door. This seems to drain extremely quick and I never see any sort of pooling here. Also, the concrete level is slightly above the level of the gravel as hopefully these pictures show. I do think that the banks on the sides of the door are directing runoff directly to the concrete pad that the door sits on, which is not sloped back towards the gravel, causing water to sit at the bottom plate and wick under.

 

[dave1949]

Here are some better pictures. I do not think that any of the water is coming from accumulation in the gravel in front of the door. This seems to drain extremely quick and I never see any sort of pooling here. Also, the concrete level is slightly above the level of the gravel as hopefully these pictures show. I do think that the banks on the sides of the door are directing runoff directly to the concrete pad that the door sits on, which is not sloped back towards the gravel, causing water to sit at the bottom plate and wick under.

View attachment 346602

View attachment 346603

That looks likely to me from these pics.

You could give yourself a little more room by laying block on each side of the door rough opening if you re-do that wall section. But, it seems like keeping the surface water from ever getting to that area is a good idea.

 

[BuilderML]

Ok here is what i would do in your place. Sorry about the picture quality but i think you'll get my point. Can't figure out how to make the picture bigger :confused3: Can you guys see it?

 

[Coyote machine]

The grade of the grass banks on either side of the doors needs to change, and the grade needs to be pulled back from along the walls too. There should be a stone lined ditch about 1.5' or more running alongside the walls sloped away from the wall allowing water to get away from the wall and away from heading to the doors area. The siding should not come to grade as it does now. The lowest portion of the siding could be trimmed with a piece of Kleer or other solid PVC material, impervious to water. T111 is not impervious to water or mold or outdoor elements. Same with the door trim, (called brickmoulding)- use PVC or nothing.
I would excavate out the grade from the side walls, seal it, after thoroughly cleaning the concrete with a Muriatic acid solution, then coat it with a bituthane sealer and use landscape fabric to line what will be your perimeter ditch, then stone to keep the water from contacting the house walls.
Water must be directed away from the entire area; both walls and doors must be isolated from water runoff and constant moisture.
Slope the remaining grade to have enough pitch to carry any remaining water away from the target area.
It seems you have a overhang of some sort above the doors? I can't tell from the pics too well, but if it's there it too must allow the water to be taken away from the doors with gutters, flashing, whatever it takes to keep the area underneath dry.

 

[forgeblast]

That is what our walk out looked like. I pushed the grass, dirt back to the corners of the house and graded away from the door. I then put in a paver patio angled away from the doors (i made infront of the doors the high point and angled away from it. I also made sure to move the gutters away from the door. I have not had a problem since then. I was also thinking about, once we re-do the deck that is above our door, to put in that system that acts like a roof/gutter system on the bottom of the deck to keep that area dry. We use it to store our deck furniture in the winter.

 

[sleepybozo]

Excellent discussion and advice so far in this thread. However, there is another possibility for water access that hasn't yet been mentioned. It's hard to see details in the one picture that shows it, but it appears that the roof covering the space between the house and garage was improperly attached to the house. It looks as though the roof structure was simply attached *through* the existing siding, so the top edge of the flashing at that joint is on the *outside* of the siding. There are gaps at every joint in the siding, and it's impossible to see how (or even if) those gaps were sealed. If water were able to get through between the siding and the flashing, run down the wall to the ceiling, which is right about the top of the T-111, it could enter the *top* of the wall, run down and collect at the bottom where the mold is forming. You should make sure the joint between the top edge of the flashing and the siding is well sealed (the top edge of the flashing should really be *under* the siding, but to fix that would mean taking the entire roof over the walkway down and rebuilding it properly). I would also take down at least a small strip of the ceiling so water could escape by running down the outside of the wall instead of finding an easier route *inside* the wall. Hopefully the main structure of the house has not been compromised and there's no rot there. Probably should check just to make sure. Personally, I would remove all of the ceiling material. It conceals a large void, inhibiting ventilation, but also creating an unseen path for fire between the garage and the house. Even if it was noticed, it takes a few minutes to tear down enough of the ceiling to get water throughout the the entire void, and that could be a couple of minutes too many. If you want to keep it, I would advise cutting a scuttle hole near the center, fairly easy for humans to open (but not for raccoons, etc.), easy to get a ladder through, and big enough for a large firefighter in full gear including breathing apparatus to turn around in. It comes in handy if you ever want to run wires, etc., through there, too.

Sorry to run on so long, hope it's been some help. (Disclaimer: I have never been employed in the construction trades. In fact, with 20+ years in the fire service, I've done a lot more un-construction (or would it be de-construction, or maybe just destruction?) than construction.)