Propane Cost???

[buickanddeere]

We just bought our place on 10 acres back in September. I put in a new HVAC system,heat pump with propane backup. I'm questioning myself now whether I did the right thing. My only other option is all electric but that will require a complete redo of our system.

Electric resistant heaters just drop right into the hot air duct. A power cable from the breaker panel, wall stat, contacter and fan relay or stat. good to go.

 

[s219]

Sounds like a bad/incompetent install. I have had geo for a number of years and have nothing but praise. Surprising is that with all of the cold this year (6+weeks of single digits/low teens) my go round loop temps are about 6-7 deg higher than normal for this time of year. My only explanation is a solid snow cover has helped insulate the ground from the low air temps.

paul

Have to agree -- our geo system has been working fantastic this winter. Total electric bill for a 2900 sq.ft house has been about $250 per month, which includes running the geothermal compressor for heat and also an electric hot water heater (in summer, hot water is free as part of the geothermal cooling cycle). At our old 2100 sq.ft house in winter, we'd have a $250-280 natural gas bill every month plus about $80-90 for electric.

Our system uses bore holes -- there are 5 of them, each about 150 feet deep. The geo line loops down and up each bore as it completes the circuit. They were drilled just like wells, but completely grouted with bentonite around the geo lines. The wells are lined up about 15 feet apart, so it disrupted very little space.

 

[techman]

... and also an electric hot water heater (in summer, hot water is free as part of the geothermal cooling cycle).

Actually you make much more hot water in the winter than in the summer. The hot water generator, known as a desuperheater, removes the "heat of compression" from the freon and transfers it to the hot water loop. In the summer, since the ground water loops are close in temperature to the temperature of the evaporator coil (for AC) there is low pressure and not much compression and therefore not much heat of compression. When heating, the temperature difference between the ground water loop and the heating coil (same coil as AC but a condenser when heating) is typically 70+ degrees. This will result in much higher freon pressures, and thus high compression of the freon. This generates a high freon temperature at the compressor discharge ("heat of compression"), which is removed and used to heat hot water. So this yields much more hot water generation during heating season.

paul

 

[ovrszd]

Have to agree -- our geo system has been working fantastic this winter. Total electric bill for a 2900 sq.ft house has been about $250 per month, which includes running the geothermal compressor for heat and also an electric hot water heater

Not picking on you. Just an observation. I'm running around that $250 per month electric bill heating 2000 sq.ft with electric baseboard, electric hot water, electric cooking. When would I recoup the cost of putting in the geothermal system??

 

[grsthegreat]

Not picking on you. Just an observation. I'm running around that $250 per month electric bill heating 2000 sq.ft with electric baseboard, electric hot water, electric cooking. When would I recoup the cost of putting in the geothermal system??

i have a 4,000 SF 2 story and i heat with both wood (when i feel like it) and propane. I looked up last months bill. Electrical (including the 1,000's of xmas lights i ran) was only $188.55. My propane bill was $275.00 (they raised the rate this last fill).

I also wonder how many 100's of years it would take to pay off a more earth friendly system. Then again, hydroelectric is clean energy. Propane isnt that bad either.

 

[Otto Syracuse]

I just paid $2.09 a gallon in late December.....and that's in NY State! I own my tank and that helps. First propane company would not sell me their leased tank after 20 years, so I dug it up and put my own in!

 

[batwing]

I just paid $2.09 a gallon in late December.....and that's in NY State! I own my tank and that helps. First propane company would not sell me their leased tank after 20 years, so I dug it up and put my own in!

They Just filled ours about 5:00 tonight, because we don't use a lot it will cost us 2.79 gal. I tried to buy our own tank but nobody will sell them or fill them for you, claim they can't because of liability.
Ron

 

[s219]

Not picking on you. Just an observation. I'm running around that $250 per month electric bill heating 2000 sq.ft with electric baseboard, electric hot water, electric cooking. When would I recoup the cost of putting in the geothermal system??

If we had to pay for the full system, I am sure it would take a long while to pay off. But right now there is a federal tax credit that offsets most of the price increase of geothermal. We were going to spend $19K for a dual zone heat pump system with propane backup. Geothermal was $32K but we get 30% tax credit from it, so ultimately we end up spending a little over $22K. I imagine we will recoup that extra $3K pretty quick. Essentially we're already 2/3 of the heating/cooling cost per square foot of our old house, and savings like that stack up month to month.

Interestingly, the 30% comes off the top of the invoice for the whole HVAC system, which also includes a humidifier, makeup air valve for the range hood, and the fancy Rheem hot water heater that ties into the geo system (I didn't include that stuff in the math above). I suspect people with real fancy HVAC setups in their new house can really benefit from the 30% credit when they base it all around geothermal.

 

[s219]

Actually you make much more hot water in the winter than in the summer. The hot water generator, known as a desuperheater, removes the "heat of compression" from the freon and transfers it to the hot water loop. In the summer, since the ground water loops are close in temperature to the temperature of the evaporator coil (for AC) there is low pressure and not much compression and therefore not much heat of compression. When heating, the temperature difference between the ground water loop and the heating coil (same coil as AC but a condenser when heating) is typically 70+ degrees. This will result in much higher freon pressures, and thus high compression of the freon. This generates a high freon temperature at the compressor discharge ("heat of compression"), which is removed and used to heat hot water. So this yields much more hot water generation during heating season.

paul

Thanks for explaining that Paul. I should probably brush up on my thermodynamics...

 

[furnone]

Just got first fill of the Winter 105 Gallons @ 2.39 per Gallon up about .40 from last year

chasemech, where are you in CT? I'm in Trumbull,CT and I paid $3.50/gal. last week, and I live 300 yards from the supplier. Perhaps I need to shop farther from home...

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Actually you make much more hot water in the winter than in the summer. The hot water generator, known as a desuperheater, removes the "heat of compression" from the freon and transfers it to the hot water loop. In the summer, since the ground water loops are close in temperature to the temperature of the evaporator coil (for AC) there is low pressure and not much compression and therefore not much heat of compression. When heating, the temperature difference between the ground water loop and the heating coil (same coil as AC but a condenser when heating) is typically 70+ degrees. This will result in much higher freon pressures, and thus high compression of the freon. This generates a high freon temperature at the compressor discharge ("heat of compression"), which is removed and used to heat hot water. So this yields much more hot water generation during heating season.

paul

Geothermal desuperheater generates more HOT water in summer, not winter. In the summer when you are taking heat out of your house, you have free heat to use to make hot water, before dumping the heat into the ground. In the winter, you want all the heat you can get to heat your house, it only heats water if it's not supplying heat to your house.

 

[deerseeker001]

I would be checking around

 

[buckeyefarmer]

since installing geothermal 2 yrs ago, my electric bill has averaged $153/month. The two yrs before that it averaged $141/month, so has increased $12 month for geothermal. Prior to geothermal, I used an average of 519 gallons of heating oil/yr. I expect my geo system to pay off in around 5-6 yrs.
I have not hooked up my desuperheater yet, when I do payoff time will decrease more.
A coworker filled propane this week at around $3.

Here is link to article regarding new separator plant coming back online, was off due to a fire right after it originally came online. Oil and Gas companies have invested around $18B in Oil/gas infrastructure in the area.
https://www.theintelligencer.net/page/content.detail/id/595208/More-Plans-At-Blue-Racer.html?nav=515

 

[dragoneggs]

Had my wife call today and they quoted her $5.03/gallon!!! We paid $1.99 around August/Sept timeframe. That IS gouging. I don't believe there is a shortage here. We own our tank for the very reason that we can now shop around. Used to be stuck with a leased tank and no options. I am going to check same place again and see if they were attempting to take advantage of a female. Also will call some others. UNBELIEVABLE!

 

[walker450]

$3.10 here in central Oklahoma. Was about $1.90 in November.

 

[techman]

Geothermal desuperheater generates more HOT water in summer, not winter. In the summer when you are taking heat out of your house, you have free heat to use to make hot water, before dumping the heat into the ground. In the winter, you want all the heat you can get to heat your house, it only heats water if it's not supplying heat to your house.

Unfortunately it is not the same heat exchanger of the same thermodynamics. I tried to give a bit more explanation: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/rural-living/302210-geothermal-hvac.html#post3638914

paul

 

[batwing]

I just had 730 gallons dropped @ $2.27/gal, the drop before that was $1.99. I'm not bragging just letting you all know you're being gouged.


I know someone that put that in and they are extremely disappointed. It does not radiate heat concrete encased.

We have lament hardwood floors and does a great job, they do not recommend floor heat for tongue and grove hardwood floor.
Ron

 

[batwing]

Any experience with radiant tubes under a wood floor? We have a hardwood floor over a 3/4" OSB subfloor in the kitchen and I am wondering about the feasibility of adding radiant tubes under the floor to replace the baseboard that isn't throwing out enough heat.
I know about adding mixing valves and probbaly a separate circ pump for that area, but am wondering about any side effects of adding tubes under the floor.

Aaron Z

We have lament hardwood floors and does a great job, they do not recommend floor heat for tongue and grove hardwood floor.
Ron

 

[rekees4300]

Crazy! Take your propane and shove it ... time to research alternatives if that happens here! Currently $1.99 thanks to 1 year contract. Next year will be higher for sure. Geo thermal looking better all the time.

Surprise, surprise. Got a letter from the propane company today saying they are invoking the "emergency clause" in our contract. Effective Feb. 1 price has gone $1.99 to $3.49 !!!

 

[ovrszd]

Surprise, surprise. Got a letter from the propane company today saying they are invoking the "emergency clause" in our contract. Effective Feb. 1 price has gone $1.99 to $3.49 !!!

Yep, I've heard that as well.