So much for a Nissan Leaf!

[mikehaugen]

Calculating coal vs oil vs electric emissions is all nonsense to begin with, and partial calculations that don't include all-in costs are worthless.

Shouldn't you also include the manufacturing of the vehicle as well? All the raw resources included in the electric motors, and then the batteries have to account for something.

I heard a while ago (think it was when the prius was coming out... or maybe the insight, I can't remember) that the manufacturing of the vehicle was so devestating that you had to drive the vehicle for something like 37 years before it could be considered "neutral. " Can't vouch for the accuracy of the source... it was quite a while ago, and of course I'm sure things have gotten better, but it's another consideration.

 

[dave1949]

Shouldn't you also include the manufacturing of the vehicle as well? All the raw resources included in the electric motors, and then the batteries have to account for something.

I heard a while ago (think it was when the prius was coming out... or maybe the insight, I can't remember) that the manufacturing of the vehicle was so devestating that you had to drive the vehicle for something like 37 years before it could be considered "neutral. " Can't vouch for the accuracy of the source... it was quite a while ago, and of course I'm sure things have gotten better, but it's another consideration.

Sure. All-in costs would also include the eventual recycling of the vehicle too.

 

[Tollster]

If I personally where ever to buy a Nissan leaf or any electric powered vehicle, it would not be because of the carbon footprint. I really can care two S***s about that, it would be simply to keep more money in my pockets, that's all I really care about. I'm happy to see something other than gas engines become available to the masses. If we have to build a few more reactors, so be it, there are plenty of folks who need a job, it may make for better welders if we had more construction like years ago as well.

 

[dave1949]

If I personally where ever to buy a Nissan leaf or any electric powered vehicle, it would not be because of the carbon footprint. I really can care two S***s about that, it would be simply to keep more money in my pockets, that's all I really care about. I'm happy to see something other than gas engines become available to the masses. If we have to build a few more reactors, so be it, there are plenty of folks who need a job, it may make for better welders if we had more construction like years ago as well.

If you ever buy an EV for purely cost reasons, it will be because the market is putting a more accurate cost on your carbon foot print--whether you care or not.

I'm not sure about nuclear power. It seems to work well in some places and not in others, which I suppose is related to the design, construction execution and on-going management of the plant. It's difficult to summon the trust level needed to buy into all that is required for success will actually happen. Not to mention the issues around uranium extraction, processing and radioactive waste storage.

 

[DarkBlack]

No good reason to be condescending! Its easy to get muddy when you throw it around.

Many choose to drive the truck or powerful SUV and do not tow trailers or need its excess power to a level that its extra cost/pollution/waste is justified which we have by finances alone. It is a choice just as the all electric car is a choice. It is reasonable to choose an all electric for reasons other than its pollution level versus a 40 mpg gas/diesel vehicle. By supporting the electric vehicle it is reasonable to believe that more resources will be available for research in this area. It is also reasonable to remind readers that the average mpg on US passenger vehicles is much less than 40 mpg.

Its fine that you ran the numbers but the from my post #418:
Electric Vehicles: Myths vs. Reality | Electric Vehicle Guide

Myth 1: Switching to an electric vehicle will just mean that the same amount of pollution comes from the electricity generation rather than from the tailpipe I'll just be switching from oil to coal.

Reality: According to a range of studies doing a 層ell to wheels analysis, an electric car leads to significantly less carbon dioxide pollution from electricity than the CO2 pollution from the oil of a conventional car with an internal combustion engine.[1][2][3] In some areas, like many on the West Coast that rely largely on wind or hydro power, the emissions are significantly lower for EVs. And that's today. As we retire more coal plants and bring cleaner sources of power online, the emissions from electric vehicle charging drop even further. Additionally, in some areas, night-time charging will increase the opportunity to take advantage of wind power -- another way to reduce emissions.

A caveat to consider is that when coal plants supply the majority of the power in a given area, electric vehicles may emit more CO2 and SO2 pollution than hybrid electric vehicles. Learn where your electricity comes from, what plans your state or community has for shifting to renewables, and whether you have options for switching to greener power

The site also states that those who purchase EVs should research the source of their electricity if their motivation is pollution reduction.


I felt that you were "cherry picking" the 40 mpg even with your explanation. A first step we can take if pollution is a concern is to consider the size and efficiency of our mode of transportation. One thing I could do is to have my morning coffee at home instead of a 20 mile round trip to the Diner. I often go to the diner with my 36-38 mpg auto.

Loren

I don't have any major issues with what you just posted.
What irks me is that I have the feeling you are trying to divert reader attention away from a conclusion I just spent time calculating, that would probably be an eye opener for 99% of the population that has the pre-formed notion from media, that a battery car would always be more "environmentally friendly". This is obviously not true.

To buy a fuel efficient ICE car, or a battery car. That's the fair and logical comparison I made. I have made no judgments on what type of vehicle.
It would not be a logical calculation to compare a pickup truck to an electric passenger train, would it? Neither is it to compare the "average" fleet. to a single battery car.
Should I compare a gas moped that gets +100mpg? Of course not!
If you want to debate what size and weight vehicles people really should drive and own, that's a whole different study, and is irrelevant to the conclusion I calculated.

I think I might post my "counter-intuitive" calculations on a new thread. I think I'm going up against some bias here.

btw: Since you are in NY here's your smokestacks charging your batteries:

NY average electric mix:

37% gas/oil
16% NG
14% nuclear ( I won't even touch that one )
11% hydro
8% oil
6% coal
5% hydro storage
3% wind
The rest negligible...

 

[Loren49]

AD #1393

EV & PLUG-IN SALES UP IN MAY
As we reported last week, Tesla’s U.S. sales were down nearly 35% in May. But overall, the EV segment posted a solid gain last month. Wards reports that electric vehicle sales were just under 6,000 units, that’s a 34% gain compared to 2013. The Nissan LEAF dominated the segment, accounting for over half of all EVs sold in May. And the BMW i3 which just debuted, had a good start with over 300 sold but we’ll have to see if the company can keep that up. Plug-in hybrids enjoyed an even bigger boost in May with over 6,600 sold, that’s an increase of 107%. The top selling plug-in was the Prius, followed by the Volt and Fusion.

On PBS this morning Autoline had an interesting discussion on EV and Hybrid vehicles and where the industry and developments are headed. They seem to not be in line with the "so much for the Nissan Leaf" attitude.

Loren

 

[houstonscott]

AD #1393 EV & PLUG-IN SALES UP IN MAY As we reported last week, Tesla’s U.S. sales were down nearly 35% in May. But overall, the EV segment posted a solid gain last month. Wards reports that electric vehicle sales were just under 6,000 units, that’s a 34% gain compared to 2013. The Nissan LEAF dominated the segment, accounting for over half of all EVs sold in May. And the BMW i3 which just debuted, had a good start with over 300 sold but we’ll have to see if the company can keep that up. Plug-in hybrids enjoyed an even bigger boost in May with over 6,600 sold, that’s an increase of 107%. The top selling plug-in was the Prius, followed by the Volt and Fusion. On PBS this morning Autoline had an interesting discussion on EV and Hybrid vehicles and where the industry and developments are headed. They seem to not be in line with the "so much for the Nissan Leaf" attitude. Loren

EV sales are subsidized by federal government, and nearly 25% are government sales directly. In a real market place their production would end very quickly as a massive failure. No one wants them, they are being forced on people and their sales are nothing more then propaganda. HS

 

[Loren49]

EV sales are subsidized by federal government, and nearly 25% are government sales directly. In a real market place their production would end very quickly as a massive failure. No one wants them, they are being forced on people and their sales are nothing more they propaganda. HS

There are many reasons for subsidies and among them are some valid reasons. You present your opinion as fact. What is out there that is a "real" market place? You seem threatened by alternative energy. Alternatives will continue to become more mainstream as time passes. A real market place would remove all fuel subsidies and charge for all of the hidden health, pollution and other environmental costs of the fuel.

Loren

 

[ultrarunner]

Employee Parking Lot just added a BMW i3 this week.

Very distinctive in styling and the largest rims I've seen on an all electric.

Like the others, this person has PV at home.

So far the largest segment goes to Leaf with 4.

Roughly, we are fast approaching 10% and it's higher if you count the hybrids.

All but one of the electric owners are male between 35 and 50.

Interesting almost all the Prius owners are female between 40 and 50.

Just about all were driving BMW, Honda Roadsters, STS or Mercedes prior.

We did have a 22 year old woman with a Leaf but she no works here...

I like the Tesla... maybe because it's made 15 miles from here and I like the styling as in full size vehicle...

About the only downside is they can sure sneak up on you because they run so quiet!

Time will tell what the long term future holds...

 

[woodlandfarms]

Just saw this . Does not apply to america as cost of auto ownership is quite different but an interesting read

BBC News - Electric cars 'to cost more to run than petrol vehicles'