Texas Grapple Shootout

[txdon]

Don, I think your grapple IS sized correctly to your tractor and you use it like I do mine. But you also realize digging out bigger stumps there is a better way. Not buying a smaller grapple because you want to dig out bigger stumps is the point I was making.

Good point, for those who are considering buying a grapple to remove a large stump. A stump bucket would be the better tool and a backhoe the best.

 

[94BULLITT]

IMHO a grapple should be sized closer to the width of your tractor and if you really want to dig, buy something meant for digging.

Your right. A grapple is not really that good of a tool for digging stumps/ trees. You can dig out so small trees and stumps but that is not really what a grapple is designed for. There is too much emphasis put on digging stumps and trees with a grapple when most of the time it is not possible for a CUT to do with a grapple.

The smaller front grapple is perfect for digging cedar trees or other shallow root trees. You can push them forward, pop them out of the ground, grab and haul away. It is the easiest and I could not be as fast with my loader (with teeth) OR MY BACKHOE. For a Larger tree (cedar larger than 8-10") the backhoe gets the job.

I agree they work good on shallow root trees.

 

[IslandTractor]

Good point, for those who are considering buying a grapple to remove a large stump. A stump bucket would be the better tool and a backhoe the best.

The very best tools for removing any size stump in my experience are a backhoe with ripper tooth and then a grapple to cart if off.

A stump bucket seems a very narrowly focused tool. As I already have a BH and ripper in my armamentarium, I'd rather spend an extra ten minutes digging with the grapple (which would be less efficient) than invest in a stump bucket and then have another piece of equipment to store and switch out. Even without the backhoe, the narrow grapple is pretty effective at taking out moderate sized trees.

Smaller trees, up to about six or eight inches in diameter depending on type, can just be pushed over after ripping up a few roots with a root grapple. I don't see that a stump bucket would be more helpful there.

A stump bucket would be very useful if you did not have a backhoe and were trying to remove a large stump however.

 

[txdon]

A stump bucket would be very useful if you did not have a backhoe and were trying to remove a large stump however.

Yes, not both, and the BH would have other uses.

 

[IslandTractor]

Comparing a tractor loader mounted grapple to an excavator with a grapple is not a good comparison. They are too different, they work differently.

With a narrow grapple if you are pushing brush into a pile the brush is going to come around the grapple and in to the tractor. It has even happened a couple times with my 72'' grapple. How many times have you been trying to dig out a root and hit another root with the grapple? Probably not very many. The extra force you are able to exert with a 48'' in most situations is not going to be much different than a larger grapple. I would have saved a 84lbs by going with a small grapple. That is not going to make or break me with a tractor the size of the 4240.

You still have not answered my original question and now your have gone further with it. You had your grapple on a Ck20 and now it is on the DK40 but some people have used it on a M59 (which is a beast of a tractor). It looks like to me it would have been too much grapple for the CK20 or not enough for the DK40 or M59. You are covering a really wide range of tractors don't your think? The Kubtoa L4240 and larger weighs more than a DK40 as does the Mahindra 4035 and 5035. The JD 4520 and Mahindra 5035 lift more on paper. There was recently a guy that had a 4520 and got a Kubota L5740 and said it would lift a pallet of lime and the Deere wouldn't. "You cannot break a grapple if you use it properly. Don't twist it. That is how to break any grapple with any size tractor." If you can twist the grapple it is too light duty for your machine.



Not only is the number of tines on the grapple important but the width of the tine and the design of the tine is important. The tines on my grapple are probably narrower than the tines on your grapple. They are also sharp. My grapple is a EA wicked grapple.

1) Excavators use narrow grapples and do a perfectly fine job of moving large trees and rocks etc. I certainly agree we don't compare excavators to CUTs but the point is that a narrow grapple can grasp just about anything and certainly can grasp anything that a wider grapple can clamp on to.

2) In a perfect world where brush was exactly a certain density and uniform, it is certainly conceivable that a wider grapple could be more efficient at plowing through the brush and then clamping on a load. In the real world, there are often bigger sized bushes that require either working around or focusing on to uproot and a wider grapple is more of a disadvantage in that setting. Much is said about how a grapple as wide as the tractor will prevent brush from scraping along the tractor. I find with a 48" grapple and a roughly 68" wide tractor, that the ten inches on either side are almost never touched by brush. The reason is that the grapple sort of plows a "bow wave" ahead of the tractor and pulls out a lot of brush from either side. I have moved acres and acres of brush (in my case mostly brambles and wild blueberries or similar sized (6-8ft tall and wide and closely spaced) brush without issue. My technique is generally simply to open the grapple, put the tines an inch or two in the ground and drive forward in 4wd low until I lose traction. I then clamp and back out. Sometimes I will open and repeat the cycle with another bush before dumping the load just by compressing more into the grapple. In my neck of the woods, with a wider grapple I would be hitting those bushes off center and that is not good for the grapple or FEL. I can easily load enough into the grapple that I cannot see around it but the load is secure. Our brush is dense enough that I am almost never driving the full length of the tractor into the brush before filling the grapple. The combination of the "bow wave" and driving only ten or twelve feet forward each time means that no brush really touches the tractor even with a narrow grapple. If I were only clearing blackberries, which are easy to uproot, it is possible that I'd find a wider grapple more efficient but my brush is generally bigger so the narrower grapple works very well.

3) Agree that spacing between tines is important. I really like the idea of the removable intermediate tines on the EA small grapple. You really only need narrow spacing when dealing with rocks or firewood, otherwise wider (9-10") spacing is preferred IMO.

4) 85lbs extra isn't much but that 85lbs is far forward on the tractor so does cut your lift capacity at pivot pins by more than that. It also negates some of your rear ballast for traction purposes. Again, 85lbs isn't much but many guys are buying 72" grapples that weigh 200+lbs more than a light duty 48" grapple like mine. That has got to have an impact on performance.

5) The only way to really damage a grapple and FEL doing this sort of work is by A) shock loads from "bulldozing" or B) asymmetric loads. A wider grapple increases the odds of an asymmetric push against an unseen stump or rock and magnifies the torque such an event has on the FEL. I appreciate that grapples are pretty tough but there is no denying the physics and wider grapples are simply more vulnerable to damaging impacts.

6) I have yet to see anyone on TBN who bought a 48" grapple complain that they wished they'd bought a wider, heavier or more expensive grapple. A 48-50" size made in 3/8 mild steel with 1/4" frame tubing seems to stand up well even to the forces an M59 can exert so I think it is an optimal size for most purposes. Again, if I was cleaning up construction debris, I'd want wider but for brush/tree removal and transport is seems perfect.

 

[txdon]

Another thing to consider when buying a raking long tine grapple is wether the outside tines are supported on both sides at the rear. These are the tines most likely to bend if not supported equally like the rest of the tines. This does not apply to the grapples with tines that have a crossmember towards the front for support and that limits depth.

 

[94BULLITT]

1) Excavators use narrow grapples and do a perfectly fine job of moving large trees and rocks etc. I certainly agree we don't compare excavators to CUTs but the point is that a narrow grapple can grasp just about anything and certainly can grasp anything that a wider grapple can clamp on to.

2) In a perfect world where brush was exactly a certain density and uniform, it is certainly conceivable that a wider grapple could be more efficient at plowing through the brush and then clamping on a load. In the real world, there are often bigger sized bushes that require either working around or focusing on to uproot and a wider grapple is more of a disadvantage in that setting. Much is said about how a grapple as wide as the tractor will prevent brush from scraping along the tractor. I find with a 48" grapple and a roughly 68" wide tractor, that the ten inches on either side are almost never touched by brush. The reason is that the grapple sort of plows a "bow wave" ahead of the tractor and pulls out a lot of brush from either side. I have moved acres and acres of brush (in my case mostly brambles and wild blueberries or similar sized (6-8ft tall and wide and closely spaced) brush without issue. My technique is generally simply to open the grapple, put the tines an inch or two in the ground and drive forward in 4wd low until I lose traction. I then clamp and back out. Sometimes I will open and repeat the cycle with another bush before dumping the load just by compressing more into the grapple. In my neck of the woods, with a wider grapple I would be hitting those bushes off center and that is not good for the grapple or FEL. I can easily load enough into the grapple that I cannot see around it but the load is secure. Our brush is dense enough that I am almost never driving the full length of the tractor into the brush before filling the grapple. The combination of the "bow wave" and driving only ten or twelve feet forward each time means that no brush really touches the tractor even with a narrow grapple. If I were only clearing blackberries, which are easy to uproot, it is possible that I'd find a wider grapple more efficient but my brush is generally bigger so the narrower grapple works very well.

3) Agree that spacing between tines is important. I really like the idea of the removable intermediate tines on the EA small grapple. You really only need narrow spacing when dealing with rocks or firewood, otherwise wider (9-10") spacing is preferred IMO.

4) 85lbs extra isn't much but that 85lbs is far forward on the tractor so does cut your lift capacity at pivot pins by more than that. It also negates some of your rear ballast for traction purposes. Again, 85lbs isn't much but many guys are buying 72" grapples that weigh 200+lbs more than a light duty 48" grapple like mine. That has got to have an impact on performance.

5) The only way to really damage a grapple and FEL doing this sort of work is by A) shock loads from "bulldozing" or B) asymmetric loads. A wider grapple increases the odds of an asymmetric push against an unseen stump or rock and magnifies the torque such an event has on the FEL. I appreciate that grapples are pretty tough but there is no denying the physics and wider grapples are simply more vulnerable to damaging impacts.

6) I have yet to see anyone on TBN who bought a 48" grapple complain that they wished they'd bought a wider, heavier or more expensive grapple. A 48-50" size made in 3/8 mild steel with 1/4" frame tubing seems to stand up well even to the forces an M59 can exert so I think it is an optimal size for most purposes. Again, if I was cleaning up construction debris, I'd want wider but for brush/tree removal and transport is seems perfect.

1) A excavator with a grapple is used differently than a tractor. That is why it is not a good comparison. If they were picking up brush they could move more with a wider grapple. Grapples on excavators are used for demolition work like busting concrete or brick walls. They are also used for digging out stumps. That is why they are narrow, they are used for different operations than CUT.

2) A root grapple is not like a bucket, it is open. A couple of extra tines is not going to hurt breakout force. If you have a big pile of brush and push into it with a 4' grapple it will tear the sides of the tractor up. When you drive forward into the pile sticks will fling back into the tractor. If you come up to an object and are not centered steer so you are .

4)I'm not worried about my lift capacity at the pivot. I don't lift stuff with my grapple at the pivot. If the tractor is ballasted properly the extra weight won't matter.

5)b)If the loader is designed for a 6' bucket it should withstand the loads of a 6' grapple.

6) Most people are going to buy what is cheap. They don't care how it works as long as it was cheap.

 

[94BULLITT]

1) Excavators use narrow grapples and do a perfectly fine job of moving large trees and rocks etc. I certainly agree we don't compare excavators to CUTs but the point is that a narrow grapple can grasp just about anything and certainly can grasp anything that a wider grapple can clamp on to.

2) In a perfect world where brush was exactly a certain density and uniform, it is certainly conceivable that a wider grapple could be more efficient at plowing through the brush and then clamping on a load. In the real world, there are often bigger sized bushes that require either working around or focusing on to uproot and a wider grapple is more of a disadvantage in that setting. Much is said about how a grapple as wide as the tractor will prevent brush from scraping along the tractor. I find with a 48" grapple and a roughly 68" wide tractor, that the ten inches on either side are almost never touched by brush. The reason is that the grapple sort of plows a "bow wave" ahead of the tractor and pulls out a lot of brush from either side. I have moved acres and acres of brush (in my case mostly brambles and wild blueberries or similar sized (6-8ft tall and wide and closely spaced) brush without issue. My technique is generally simply to open the grapple, put the tines an inch or two in the ground and drive forward in 4wd low until I lose traction. I then clamp and back out. Sometimes I will open and repeat the cycle with another bush before dumping the load just by compressing more into the grapple. In my neck of the woods, with a wider grapple I would be hitting those bushes off center and that is not good for the grapple or FEL. I can easily load enough into the grapple that I cannot see around it but the load is secure. Our brush is dense enough that I am almost never driving the full length of the tractor into the brush before filling the grapple. The combination of the "bow wave" and driving only ten or twelve feet forward each time means that no brush really touches the tractor even with a narrow grapple. If I were only clearing blackberries, which are easy to uproot, it is possible that I'd find a wider grapple more efficient but my brush is generally bigger so the narrower grapple works very well.

3) Agree that spacing between tines is important. I really like the idea of the removable intermediate tines on the EA small grapple. You really only need narrow spacing when dealing with rocks or firewood, otherwise wider (9-10") spacing is preferred IMO.

4) 85lbs extra isn't much but that 85lbs is far forward on the tractor so does cut your lift capacity at pivot pins by more than that. It also negates some of your rear ballast for traction purposes. Again, 85lbs isn't much but many guys are buying 72" grapples that weigh 200+lbs more than a light duty 48" grapple like mine. That has got to have an impact on performance.

5) The only way to really damage a grapple and FEL doing this sort of work is by A) shock loads from "bulldozing" or B) asymmetric loads. A wider grapple increases the odds of an asymmetric push against an unseen stump or rock and magnifies the torque such an event has on the FEL. I appreciate that grapples are pretty tough but there is no denying the physics and wider grapples are simply more vulnerable to damaging impacts.

6) I have yet to see anyone on TBN who bought a 48" grapple complain that they wished they'd bought a wider, heavier or more expensive grapple. A 48-50" size made in 3/8 mild steel with 1/4" frame tubing seems to stand up well even to the forces an M59 can exert so I think it is an optimal size for most purposes. Again, if I was cleaning up construction debris, I'd want wider but for brush/tree removal and transport is seems perfect.

1) A excavator with a grapple is used differently than a tractor. That is why it is not a good comparison. If they were picking up brush they could move more with a wider grapple. Grapples on excavators are used for demolition work like busting concrete or brick walls. They are also used for digging out stumps. That is why they are narrow, they are used for different operations than CUT.

2) A root grapple is not like a bucket, it is open. A couple of extra tines is not going to hurt breakout force. If you have a big pile of brush and push into it with a 4' grapple it will tear the sides of the tractor up. When you drive forward into the pile sticks will fling back into the tractor. If you come up to an object and are not centered steer so you are .

4)I'm not worried about my lift capacity at the pivot. I don't lift stuff with my grapple at the pivot. If the tractor is ballasted properly the extra weight won't matter.

5)b)If the loader is designed for a 6' bucket it should withstand the loads of a 6' grapple.

6) Most people are going to buy what is cheap. They don't care how it works as long as it was cheap.

 

[Poopdeck Pappy]

The smaller front grapple is perfect for digging cedar trees or other shallow root trees. You can push them forward, pop them out of the ground, grab and haul away. It is the easiest and I could not be as fast with my loader (with teeth) OR MY BACKHOE. For a Larger tree (cedar larger than 8-10") the backhoe gets the job.

When I was considering which grapple and which size to buy, I was thinking of what I expected it to accomplish and I hit my goal on this grapple. My first grapple was a 72" bobcat bucket grapple and the tines were not long enough and it picked up too much sand for the jobs I needed it to do.

I'm doing the same thing with my stump grapple on my 50hp tractor and the backhoe on my BX23. For the cedars that are too big to push over with the bigger tractor, I just dig up some of the lateral roots with the backhoe and can then push the tree over with the bigger tractor and haul it away with the stump grapple.

 

[IslandTractor]

1) A excavator with a grapple is used differently than a tractor. That is why it is not a good comparison. If they were picking up brush they could move more with a wider grapple. Grapples on excavators are used for demolition work like busting concrete or brick walls. They are also used for digging out stumps. That is why they are narrow, they are used for different operations than CUT.

2) A root grapple is not like a bucket, it is open. A couple of extra tines is not going to hurt breakout force. If you have a big pile of brush and push into it with a 4' grapple it will tear the sides of the tractor up. When you drive forward into the pile sticks will fling back into the tractor. If you come up to an object and are not centered steer so you are .

4)I'm not worried about my lift capacity at the pivot. I don't lift stuff with my grapple at the pivot. If the tractor is ballasted properly the extra weight won't matter.

5)b)If the loader is designed for a 6' bucket it should withstand the loads of a 6' grapple.

6) Most people are going to buy what is cheap. They don't care how it works as long as it was cheap.

1) We agree on this. I pointed it out as some folks who have not used a grapple worry that narrow grapples cannot pick up trees which is obviously not the case. Technically they can pick up even bigger trees as they have more net lift capacity than a tractor with a larger heavier grapple.

2) Breakout force on a root that you have a tine under is affected by having extra tines. That is why rippers, which aim to maximize force on roots, have only one tine. True that if you are digging in fine sand and have extra tines they will not diminish the breakout force on the root in any meaningful way, but if there is sod or rocks or other roots in the area then the breakout force on the target root is diluted. If extra tines were of no consequence, there would be no reason for backhoes to use rippers instead of buckets.

4) I am well aware that lift at pivot point is not the important number. However, a heavier grapple (say 85lbs heavier) is actually cutting lifting capacity more than 85lbs because the grapple weight is forward of the PP. So your grapple has basically about 100-150lbs less net lift capacity than the identically constructed 48" grapple. Not such a big amount but probably 5-8% of your total lift capacity. If you had one of the typically 600lb heavy duty 72" grapples that many people advocate, you'd pay a much bigger penalty and lose perhaps a quarter of your lift capacity compared to a 48" grapple. Perhaps you have never tried to lift something you didn't have the capacity to lift. I have. Every little bit of capacity counts. As for ballast, the same principle applies. If you have an extra 200lbs hanging off the front of your tractor, you have about 200lbs less down force on your rear tires. I have lifted boulders with my grapple that left me with barely the traction and control I needed to move despite having a backhoe mounted. Unless you want to carry around excessive ballast all the time, it does matter how heavy your FEL implements are, especially when lifting extreme loads.

5) Basically yes but the same concern about bulldozing and hitting an object off center (especially hitting a stump or big rock with the edge) is the same for buckets and grapples. Usually you don't plow into unexplored brush with a bucket but that is a typical task for a grapple. That grapple edge is a potential vulnerability. A 48" grapple has it's edge right about in line with the FEL arm so there is essentially no twisting force when you hit a stump etc. (still not great to ram a stump with skimpy CUT FEL arms!!) Note that bulldozers, which are designed obviously to bulldoze, have their "FEL" arms as close to the blade edge as possible and that those arms are fat and short. FEL arms are not designed for bulldozing and anything that increases twisting forces on them is bad.

6) In the case of grapples on CUTs, a reasonable argument can be made that cheaper is better if the cheapness is achieved through narrower grapple with only one upper arm/jaw. Cheapness can go too far however and there have been a few threads here on manufacturers who use 1/8" thin wall square tube for frames on their economy grapples. That is to be avoided. 1/4" has been shown to be perfectly adequate but it is possible to crush 1/8". I don't know exactly which manufacturers were using 1/8" in the past nor do I know if any still do. Anyone buying a grapple should ask specifically what wall thickness is used though. NEVER buy a 1/8" square tube wall thickness grapple unless the ONLY thing you intend to do is pick up loose brush.