DK40SE HST No start - fuel problem? electrical?

[Avondale]

James, Thank You for your explanation and images. While I do not have this problem, I will tag this for future ref, should it ever happen to me.

 

[Egon]

Consider cracking open the bleed valve downstream of the injector and check for flow?

 

[ritcheyvs]

Ok first round of checks are done.
Replaced far left start relay and i get a definite click out of fuel shut off solenoid.
Bad news is no start.
Opened oil fill cover and found i could move the rack back and forth easily. So gear train appears to be functioning.
I noticed a fainter clicking very quickly after the main solenoid noise.
So im going to replace other relay on firewall on next go at it. Seems possible to me the holding part of the shutoff party may be the problem.
Unfortunately i ran battery down so i had to quit for weekend.

Question to all (again thanks) is that fuel solenoid tricky to change out?

That's a good start. Charge up that battery next.

As you observed there is a pronounced clack then the pull coil retracts the stop solenoid. But there are also at least two relays that operate at about the same time (one for the pull coil and one for the glow plugs) so the source of second sound you heard may not be obvious.

Before you disassemble anything, thy this: turn the key switch to "on" when you should hear the stop solenoid retract plus maybe a couple relays. Wait a few seconds and turn the switch off. At that point you should again hear the stop solenoid, extending, almost as loud as when you turned the key to "on." If not, there is a problem with the hold coil. The hold coil gets power directly from the key switch (no relay involved) so the problem is as likely to be the switch as the stop solenoid. The crude acid test is to unbolt and remove the stop solenoid from the front of the engine. That eliminates the stop solenoid as a possible cause of your no-start problem. You can also visually verify stop solenoid operation while it is removed just by watching the plunger as the switch is turned on and off BUT you need to jumper (or touch) the solenoid case to engine ground because the ground return for both coils is through the engine block.

The key switch has been a problem for many owners. In many cases, a couple shots of WD-40 or electrical contact cleaner into the key hole (followed by inserting and turning the key several times) will fix that problem, at least for a time.

Poor contact within the key switch can also prevent glow plug operation (I had that problem) with similar symptoms (no start when engine is cold).

You can also check the stop solenoid operation (by feel) using the manual stop linkage without disassembling anything. With the engine off you should feel very little resistance (just the return spring) when you operate the manual stop lever. With the key switch "on" (and the stop solenoid retracted) you should feel a little additional force on the manual lever because it is pushing the injection pump rack back to the full aft position.

You probably observed some of this when you removed the "oil fill" plate. By the way with that plate removed you should be able to visually see the injection pump rack pin move from the full aft position to the full forward position (and stay there) when the key is turned to "on". That's another way to check the stop solenoid.

So the next step (after charging) is to verify proper stop solenoid operation.

 

[k0ua]

That's a good start. Charge up that battery next.

As you observed there is a pronounced clack then the pull coil retracts the stop solenoid. But there are also at least tworelays that operate at about the same time (one for the pull coil and one for the glow plugs) so the source of second sound you heard may not be obvious.

Before you disassemble anything, thy this: turn the key switch to "on" when you should hear the stop solenoid retract plus maybe a couple relays. Wait a few seconds and turn the switch off. At that point you should again hear the stop solenoid, extending this time, almost as loud as when you turned the key to "on." If not, there is a problem with the hold coil. The hold coil gets power directly from the key switch (no relay involved) so the problem is as likely to be the switch as the start relay. The crude acid test is to unbolt and remove the stop solenoid from the front of the engine. If that removes the stop solenoid as a possible cause of your problem. You can also visually verify this solenoid operation when it is removed just by watching the plunger as the switch is turned on and off BUT you need to jumper (ot touch) the solenoid case to engine ground because the ground return is through the engine block.

The key switch has been a problem for many owners. In many cases, a couple shots of WD-40 or electrical contact cleaner into the key hole (followed by turning the key several times) will fix the problem, at least for a time.

Also, a poor contact within the key switch can prevent glow plug operation (I had that problem) with similar results (no start when engine s cold).

You can also check the stop solenoid operation by feel using the manual stop linkage without disassembling anything. With the engine off you should feel very little resistance (just the return spring) when you operate the manual stop lever. With the key switch "on" and the stop solenoid retracted you should feel a little additional force on the manual lever because it is pushing the injection pump rack back to the full aft position. You observed some of this when you removed the "oil fill" plate. By the way with that plate removed you should be able to visually see the injection pump rack pin move from the full aft position to the full forward position (and stay there) when the key is turned to "on". That's another way to check the stop solenoid.

So the next step (after charging) is to verify proper stop solenoid operation.

Those instructions ought to be a " sticky".

 

[tabacman]

I have never done it. but I think it is easy. Just a nut on a stud. But did you take a voltage measurement? There are 3 wires, a common and the pull wire, should be energized for 1 second, ( 12 volts and high current ) and the hold wire should be energized continuously from the key buss (12 volts but very low current.)

<img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=422644"/><img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=422645"/><img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=422646"/>

No current checks as the battery was fading fast. But i located the multimeter so that will be first check on returning.
Thanks again.
I was pretty happy with the hi pressure rack working while the battery was charging, so should have full battery on doing the line checks this weekend.
The relay was 7.50 so i will grab another one anyway even if its a good spare.

 

[tabacman]

That's a good start. Charge up that battery next.

As you observed there is a pronounced clack then the pull coil retracts the stop solenoid. But there are also at least two relays that operate at about the same time (one for the pull coil and one for the glow plugs) so the source of second sound you heard may not be obvious.

Before you disassemble anything, thy this: turn the key switch to "on" when you should hear the stop solenoid retract plus maybe a couple relays. Wait a few seconds and turn the switch off. At that point you should again hear the stop solenoid, extending, almost as loud as when you turned the key to "on." If not, there is a problem with the hold coil. The hold coil gets power directly from the key switch (no relay involved) so the problem is as likely to be the switch as the stop solenoid. The crude acid test is to unbolt and remove the stop solenoid from the front of the engine. That eliminates the stop solenoid as a possible cause of your no-start problem. You can also visually verify stop solenoid operation while it is removed just by watching the plunger as the switch is turned on and off BUT you need to jumper (or touch) the solenoid case to engine ground because the ground return for both coils is through the engine block.

The key switch has been a problem for many owners. In many cases, a couple shots of WD-40 or electrical contact cleaner into the key hole (followed by inserting and turning the key several times) will fix that problem, at least for a time.

Poor contact within the key switch can also prevent glow plug operation (I had that problem) with similar symptoms (no start when engine is cold).

You can also check the stop solenoid operation (by feel) using the manual stop linkage without disassembling anything. With the engine off you should feel very little resistance (just the return spring) when you operate the manual stop lever. With the key switch "on" (and the stop solenoid retracted) you should feel a little additional force on the manual lever because it is pushing the injection pump rack back to the full aft position.

You probably observed some of this when you removed the "oil fill" plate. By the way with that plate removed you should be able to visually see the injection pump rack pin move from the full aft position to the full forward position (and stay there) when the key is turned to "on". That's another way to check the stop solenoid.

So the next step (after charging) is to verify proper stop solenoid operation.

Thanks ritcheyvs - the obvious thing of taking off the plate while operating the key sequence apparently escaped my feeble mind. Will add that as first step on returning. Thanks again to all.

 

[ritcheyvs]

... But i located the multimeter so that will be first check on returning.
....

Good man. Unless you discovered a way to see electricity, troubleshooting without a multimeter is like driving with your eyes closed.

...I was pretty happy with the hi pressure rack working while the battery was charging, so should have full battery on doing the line checks this weekend ....

FYI, the injection pump is an elegant device which is machined to incredibly tight tolerances. But the control concept is dirt simple. There is a linear geared strip called the rack. When the rack is full aft, the injectors get zero fuel and the engine stops. When the rack is full forward all the injectors get the maximum amount of fuel. With the oil-fill plate removed you can see the "pin" that is attached to the rack. The rack is spring-loaded to the full forward position. The stop solenoid has a stronger spring that holds the rack full aft (off) until the solenoid is energized to retract (pull) and keep (hold) the solenoid plunger. With the plunger retracted the rack moves forward until it rests against the governor arm. Once the engine starts there is a theoretical steady state governor arm position where the throttle spring force (pulling it forward) balances the centrifugal governor force (pushing it aft). In practice, the governor arm constantly dances forward and aft to maintain the RPM "commanded" by the throttle spring and the rack follows it because the pin is spring loaded to rest against the governor arm.

 

[TJP89]

Those instructions ought to be a " sticky".

Absolutely. I now suspect ritcheyvs actually works for Kioti, after all he always has lots of great info and lives in NC:thumbsup:

 

[Btown]

OK so right around 300 hours on my DK40 and after a pretty rough winter the beast won't fire. Mines probably in the 2008 vintage (I'd really have to check the book). I'm reading a lot of fuel related issues.... My symptoms are a little odd though. It will crank like crazy but won't light off. Dash lights all seem to indicate correctly and the fuses in the cab are all good. Got fuel and indicates for neutral - and cranks over strong - so this has got me wondering if something in the fuel delivery is broken. But I've learned over the years electrical is a good suspect to line up first. Taking a quick glance at the electrical diagram I didn't see if a relay is directly indicated for fuel pump. I know the mechanical injector pump seems to be the common point of failure from what I am reading in here. Is there a relay I should check/replace first before disassembling the front of the block? Is there a tank pump that sends fuel down to the injector pump that I should check out? I just discovered my dilemma after being busy with other things the last month or two - so other than fuses and checking the real obvious things - gear selector position etc. - I haven't dug in yet. I'm not the worlds greatest mechanic - but I'd like to at least suss out the source before I get my nearest dealer/repair shop involved. THanks all for any help you can throw at me.

Could the injection pump be bad. I know some Kioti had a run of pumps that failed prematurely. I'm not sure on the years but I remember it was in the 2000's. Just s thought.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Tony: I have no connection with Kioti but I bought a used 2006 DK45s and it got my attention when SherryM (with the exact same tractor) experienced the dreaded IP gear failure. As it happens I have owned a couple Mercedes Diesel cars and a couple sailboats with small Diesel engines so I knew a little bit about mechanical Diesel injection systems. I'm also a retired electrical engineer so I'm not intimidated by simple DC circuits. So, to the extent practical with this medium (online forums), I enjoy diagnosing simple tractor problems. I don't know anything about the new Tier IV systems. And if it comes to a hydraulic problem, you probably need wisdom from someone like JJ.

Btown: In this case tabacman verified that the injection pump rack was not jammed, so that probably isn't his problem. The main injection pump failure mode in these 2005-2008 Kioti engines is broken gear teeth (inside the IP) which jam the rack so it cannot move freely, or at all. Fortunately the rack usually jams in the full-off position, but not always (no-start is frustrating but a run-away engine is considerably worse). Different Kioti models converted to the troublesome IP configuration at different times between mid 2005 (for my DK45) to 2007 or 2008 for some of the smaller engines. I have not seen the problem reported in 2009 and later models (and very few 2008 models) so I assume an engineering change fixed the problem (likely different metallurgy or heat-treating). Incidentally, I did see (only) one report of broken springs in a DK55 injection pump delivery valves, which also caused a no-start.