Overheated Robin EH72-FI (28 hp) in PT-425 solved

[Kent]

Kent, I have a 2015 of which I have put about 13 hours on it now. I am always one to try to prevent problems, and know that heat is a BIG issue. I couldn't believe on my JD how much the insulation on the firewall that seals the hood and all up makes a difference, as it pulls from the belly pan, and pushes it out the front of the tractor.

So, I wish I could put a fan on the exhaust side to pull it out, but think that will be too hot, as I have read others seemed to have tried that before. The fan seems to be the next step I should try, and is pretty cheap and easy to try. I just wish they had a bigger charging system on the machine.

I don't have any PTO attachments, and the hardest I have been working it now is digging a lot with the hoe, but can't tell a lot of difference in the heat change, other then the wrap made it keep the heat more on the exhaust header, and seemed to have brought the muffler temp up about 50 degrees. I did clean the inside of the exhaust ports on the header pipes where they welded them a bit off center before welding them, but can't tell much with that. It will soon be coming up to the first oil change, and will change over to synthetic and hope that will save the engine some.

I will test to see what the temps are on my 27hp Kawasaki in my Hustler zero turn somtime, as I know the old Onan in my JD runs pretty cool now with the way it can suck the heat out.

Jeff - I am not a muffler expert, but common sense tells me that the stock muffler is about the worst design possible in terms of an efficient flow. You are right that the fan is a cheap first (and possibly only) step to take. You want it mounted on the side opposite the muffler, and blowing cool air into the engine compartment across the exhaust manifold. Just zip tie it on and for testing, alligator clip the leads. I put in an 8" fan, 5 amp. I sized the wire and fuse appropriately for 7.5 amp draw. On its own circuit, not piggybacking off the hydraulic fan wires. The battery has more than enough amps to handle this draw, even with the lights on, and the charge coil puts out 25 or 30 amps.

 

[jfischer]

Kent, I have a 10" fan on the way, and should have all else needed to hook it up.

I did notice something tonight, when I was taking temps, it was after I had gotten off the tractor, and gotten in my wheelchair, with the engine off before. I noticed that things were a bit cooler when I left the engine running, but still higher then I would like on a air cooled engine.

I was digging stumps out with the hoe today, and did notice that puts more heat on then just moving dirt around with the bucket.

Next chance I get to do some work should be enough time on it to change the oil for the first time and went and got some Mobile 1 to put in it tonight. I bought a true Subaru filter when I picked the machine up, but need to find a good place for some bulk filters, I have found with small engines that seems to be the life of them.

Thanks for all your advice, I will tell you of my results after I put the fan on it, and if the wrap alone on the exhaust will be enough to keep the temps where I am happy with them.

 

[MuncyBob]

Out of curiosity I measured the stock PT422 muffler temp last night after running just the bucket for about 20 minutes. Muffler & exhaust pipe was at 660, floor of tub was 240 and gas tank side of heat shield was 110. Hoping to get my side fan installed in the next few days.

 

[Marks481]

OK, I might be interested after all. The stuff I got (advertised as SS exhaust flex tubing) is not pressure tight. It is just flexible electrical metal conduit. And they sent me the wrong size (1" vs. 1.25"). Is the stuff you have pressure tight?

Kent, thanks for the flexible exhaust tubing. The stuff you sent is definitely the real deal, and very different from the stuff the TAC company (in my above post) is selling that they claim is exhaust tubing... but which is really just flexible metallic electrical conduit... that breathes freely and could be suicidal to use in the application they sell it for (ducting exhaust out of generators on busses). I already had some 1.25" electrical conduit... I didn't need to buy more. Wish I could edit the post to remove the link I made, to prevent somebody else from buying that junk from them. At least they refunded my money.

My right arm is immobile temporarily (I hope) because of tendonitis, so I haven't got anywhere with installing the muffler yet.

 

[joshlee]

I just want to say thanks for passing this info onto all of us and all of the work involved. You definitely made it a simple task for others to do, therefore, saving allot life our engines. I'm here right now ordering all the stuff I need to do this project. Thank you

Josh

Not having bought a mid-life sports car, I decided with little practical sense to upgrade the engine of my PT-425 to the Robin EH72-FI (fuel injected) only after 219 hours on the original 25 hp engine. The promise of better gas mileage, better winter starting (there is no manual choke control with the FI version), and more horsepower, made it irresistible to better handle my hilly Vermont property year round.

I first want to thank these two other members for their very helpful instructions on how to swap out the PT-422/25 engine:

KMA's post at http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...ngine-swap-completed-pics.html?highlight=100#

SnowRidge's post at http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...tml?highlight=PT-425+engine+removal+procedure

I also took KMA's advice to split the shroud across the top of the engine flywheel fan (http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/power-trac/309111-engine-heat-shields.html#post3740605) and taped it back together with Gorilla Tape.

All went well with the engine swap, but the first sign of any trouble was during the engine break-in period when the tire under the muffler started smoking and the rubber became quite soft. I quickly moved the tractor a little to prevent a fire.

The FI engine runs at 4000 RPM so after the break in I dialed down the maximum speed screw on the throttle body to be under 3600 RPM to match the max speed of the hydraulic pumps. Keep in mind that the two EH-72 engines are basically identical except for the FI throttle body and electric fuel pump.

With the engine broken in, I tried a little mowing, but things quickly went fatally wrong. The engine cut out and dead stopped after only about 20 minutes. It would not restart.

I went through everything I had done during the swap, but everything seemed tightly and correctly connected. I did notice lots of bubbling in the fuel filter. Vapor lock?

You should be aware that the fuel pump on the FI uses an electric motor, and that motor is mounted on the engine on the left side of the metal cylinder shroud. I used my IR temperature meter and found the PT-crafted muffler to be 672 degrees and the tub under the muffler behind which sat the fuel pump to be 235 degrees. Pretty hot!

Figuring vapor lock, I re-routed both the gas lines (the FI fuel pump requires a gas line from the throttle body back to the top of the fuel tank) to run on the opposite side of the engine. This shows the two gas lines coming out of the side opposite the muffler:

View attachment 384532

This shows the new location of the fuel pump under the right bottom the fuel tank (there is also a shutoff valve under there).

View attachment 384531

While I was at it, I sprang for high-pressure fuel line made for fuel injection. Not that the pressure is that great but the hose is really beefy and in my mind less prone to vapor lock.

Confident I would not suffer from vapor lock again I attempted another mow. But once again, the engine cut out and dead stopped. Rather discouraged I actually read the engine manual and discovered that there is a temperature sensor wire on the FI version of the engine. It goes up to the FI throttle body/computer and if the engine is too hot, the power to the fuel pump is immediately cut off. This certainly explains the problem! The sensor wire connects to the bottom of the crankcase with a little screw down below where the crankshaft joins the hydraulic pumps. By the time I made it back to the tractor with my IR temperature meter, that screw was still at 212 degrees. I don't know what temp triggers the overheat condition. The top of the crankcase where the PT muffler is about an inch away, was at 298 degrees.

I had never had reason before this to study the PT muffler, and not being an engineer or mechanic of any kind, could only rely on simple observation. First, the round exhaust pipes are perpendicular to the square header pipe (doesn't seem to encourage any velocity) and the square header pipe is smack in the middle of where the air is flowing past the cylinder heads from the flywheel fan, blocking the flow. Then the whole thing is encased by the heat shield, with not much place for the air from the flywheel fan to go, and even worse, that airflow is further blocked by the heat shield. The hydraulic cooling fan on top doesn't pick up any of the exhaust heat due to the heat shield. So the exhaust heats up, which in turn heats up the crankcase, which quickly trips the temperature sensor. This whole exhaust set up wasn't problematic for the 25 hp engine only because it doesn't have a temperature sensor! This doesn't mean the engine isn't overheating, just it isn't smart enough to shut itself down when it does.

Naturally at this point I was rather bummed out with this new engine, but at least I had a clue as to what the problem is, mainly exhaust heat build up. I decided after reading various posts that I had really only two solutions: 1) install a side fan (CFR Performance Electric Radiator Cooling Fan - Flat Blade, HZ-1001-8); and, 2) install the Robin exhaust header/muffler (Robin Subaru Muffler Kit Side Mount Oil Filter Side #92630004). Though probably not necessary or effective, I also covered the entire length of the thermostat wire with Heatshield Products Hot Rod Sleeve thermal sleeving to shield it from ambient engine/exhaust heat.

Cooling Fan

I am grateful for these posts:

Phils's post at http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/power-trac/99371-pt422-aux-cooling.html?highlight=fan
Kludge's post at http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/power-trac/65543-added-extra-cooling-fan.html?highlight=fan

I went with the CFR fan because it is only 3 amp and the 8" size seemed perfect. I made up a harness to run off the battery (connected at the starter motor), a 7.5 amp inline fuse, and then through a Therm-O-Disk sensor (identical to the one used by the hydraulic fan) attached to the heat shield. I attached the sensor, based on temperatures I took with my IR temperature meter, to the heat shield.

View attachment 384530

I connected to the ground screw for the fan to an existing ground bolt inside the right rear of the tub.

It takes about 5 minutes or so for the engine to heat up enough such that the heat shield and contact thermostat reach 110 degrees (the closing temp of the thermostat). When I turn off the tractor, the fan keeps running for a few minutes until the temp goes down below 90 degrees. That way the engine when turned off doesn't cook and overheat itself with residual/trapped heat. To test the fan I just zip tied it to the side of the engine compartment and at full operation the temperature sensor screw dropped to 204 degrees, down from 212 (or higher)! And better yet, the stalling problem had been fixed.

For a permanent installation I built a frame out of 1-1/2" c-channel steel and asked my neighbor to weld it onto the tractor. This shows the frame.

View attachment 384537

I cut out the diamond screen behind the fan to improve airflow.

FYI, I bought a new battery and the engine has a 30-amp charge coil, so I don't think the fan running after shutdown for at most 15 minutes will be a problem.

Robin Muffler

I am thankful for Gravy's post at http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/power-trac/100127-robin-exhaust.html?highlight= for ideas on how to use the Robin muffler.

If figured a new, better flowing muffler should reduce heat under the heat shield and a better header let the engine fan push air past the cylinders more efficiently. And moreover the horizontal header pipe is now above the crankcase, hopefully cutting down on radiant heat to the crankcase where the temperature sensor wire is attached. I cut the new header pipe right before the bend and rotated the flange 180 degrees before bolting it on to the muffler. I also bent the stock attachment plate 90 degrees and ran two bolts into the tub. This shows the bracket this along with a little brace I added to strengthen the attachment.

View attachment 384533

The OD of the Robin exhaust header is 1-1/4" and I found Walker Flex Exhaust Tubing with an ID of 1-1/4". Add 1-1/4" muffler clamps from JEGS and it all bolted together nicely, as shown here without any welding required.

View attachment 384535

The flex pipe has a nice smooth curve, and it just so happened that the minimum bend radius was perfect, lining up the two ends of the cut header pipe. This shows the smooth bends of the Robin exhaust manifold and how they go away and up from the exhaust ports and higher over the top of the crankcase in comparison to the PT muffler.

View attachment 384534

With the Robin exhaust and the side fan running, the temperature sensor screw dropped to 172 degrees! There just isn't as much heat to move out from under the heat shield. While the PowerTrac muffler is I suspect OK with regard to minimizing backpressure, it does poorly with respect to velocity. The Robin header and muffler more speedily remove gas and heat. The temperature at the top of the muffler is only 220 degrees, the bottom a mere 128 degrees. The middle of the flexpipe is only 130 degrees. Compare that with the 672 degree PowerTrac muffler in the same location! The tub under the muffler (which is also further away from the tire but high enough so the tip is above the bottom of the tub) is 160 degrees, down from the original 235.

To make the ideal installation possible I cut out the double plated arch in the engine housing and made a new support structure with a higher/wider opening, as shown here:

View attachment 384536

The Robin muffler has a slightly mellower tone such that I can now hear the finish mower whirring and more hydraulic whine, and it has a spark arrestor at the tip as a bonus. But the point of the Robin muffler was heat reduction, so any reduction in volume/tone is a bonus.

With these two changes, the side fan and the Robin muffler, I have had no further overheating, and am enjoying the couple extra horsepower as I mow up the hills. The engine doesn't bog down like the 25 hp engine did, and I don't have to slow down to keep the finish mower blade tip speed up. I also find that with the additional horsepower I can run the throttle at maybe 3200 when finish mowing and have more power than before (check out the power curve on the FI version at http://www.subarupower.com/pspecsheet.aspx?pid=223), which also reduces the volume. When bush hogging 3 grass I go up to full throttle (3600), which seems to work better.

Overall I am feeling pretty darn lucky that the changes enabled the engine to work in the PT-425. There really wasn't anything else I could try, short of putting the old engine back in and eating the cost of the new engine.

 

[MossRoad]

That's one of the nice things about this forum... folks are very willing to share the info. :thumbsup:

 

[joshlee]

Yep, this Power Trac family is awesome.

That's one of the nice things about this forum... folks are very willing to share the info. :thumbsup:

 

[jfischer]

Hey Kent, I did the mod of adding a 10" fan to blow across the engine and exhaust. When turned off, it feels like a LOT of air coming across it.

Are you taking your temps with the engine running, or with it turned off.

I am not seeing a lot of drop in temps, but I can only take it after I have gotten in the chair, and gotten off the machine, and know that it should be cooler with the engine running.

Next step would be to try the Subaru Exhaust, as I have the stock PT header wrapped all the way to the tub where the muffler meets, and the outside muffler is getting hotter, but the head temps are in the high 200-300 degrees, which I think is still way hot.

I checked my 27hp Kawasaki in my Zero turn today after cutting grass, and I was around 180 with it on the head.

 

[joshlee]

Hey Jeff, here is a link on how hot a air-cooled engine should run. I never really new much about the temps of air-cooled before until I started looking into it. I did notice that some people were getting there PT rebuild at, what I thought were, low hours. Then that exhaust header and muffler definitely threw up some red flags when I first saw it. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100521130931AAR0fAT

Hey Kent, I did the mod of adding a 10" fan to blow across the engine and exhaust. When turned off, it feels like a LOT of air coming across it.

Are you taking your temps with the engine running, or with it turned off.

I am not seeing a lot of drop in temps, but I can only take it after I have gotten in the chair, and gotten off the machine, and know that it should be cooler with the engine running.

Next step would be to try the Subaru Exhaust, as I have the stock PT header wrapped all the way to the tub where the muffler meets, and the outside muffler is getting hotter, but the head temps are in the high 200-300 degrees, which I think is still way hot.

I checked my 27hp Kawasaki in my Zero turn today after cutting grass, and I was around 180 with it on the head.

 

[Kent]

Jeff-I think your comparison temp with the 27hp Kawasaki is interesting...and proof that the Powertrac engine bay is not doing a good job cooling. Yes, a hot air-cooled engine is generally a good thing, but I go back to the Subaru 28hp FI temp sensor wire (not on the 25 hp), which cuts off the engine (via the fuel pump power) when it overheats. So Subaru in a sense is agreeing that its engine running in a PT-425 is overheating, and very quickly I might add. We just didn't know it with the 25 hp engine.

I took all my temps with the engine fully heated up and running. (my early temps were taken after the new engine shut off due to overheating)

It is an interesting experiment you ran with just the fan.

Take a look at the PT exhaust manifold, which you actually made wider with the wrap. The engine's flywheel cooling fan sucks air from the front of the engine and blows it across the heads. But wait! The exhaust manifold is blocking the airflow, which is further blocked by the heat shield both to the front and upwards. So the hot air can't escape quick enough.

The Robin muffler on the other hand raises the horizontal tube above the heads, meaning the heads can be effectively cooled by the engine's flywheel fan. Plus the combustion heat is more efficiently moved out to the muffler, with its smoother curves.

I specifically wanted the new fan to keep running after I turn off the engine so it doesn't cook in the heat. When I had the 25 hp engine I was baffled why restarting a hot engine was so difficult, and perhaps it was just cooked with no air coming across it from the flywheel fan. And this is exactly how cars with electric radiator fans work, so there must be something to it.

 

[Kent]

To get maximum airflow--and the only reason I know this is because it took me a few tries to get right--is both air direction (switch hot lead) and fin direction (flip fan blade over). At first I had the leads right such that the fan was blowing inward, but I had the fins backwards, so not much air was actually moving. Flipped the blade over and wow, that was more like it.

I am not seeing a lot of drop in temps, but I can only take it after I have gotten in the chair, and gotten off the machine, and know that it should be cooler with the engine running.

 

[jfischer]

Hey Kent, I have not been doing a lot of playing since I did put the fan on, but I tried the fan before I did, and found out you had to change both polarity and the direction of the blades. It sounds like as small jet when you turn it on.

Also have been doing a lot of reading on air cooled head temps and to really take it right you need to put a temp sensor somewhere around the spark plug, but I have been taking it in that area, and think what I am getting now is acceptable for temps. The muffler is still hot as heck on the outside, but do think it is moving the heat out of the engine compartment, and I have never had any vapor lock problems or such, and starts up fine after it has been cut off hot.

Instead of a heat sensor, I put mine on a manual lighted switch, so it could give it a second to warm up, and then in the Winter I don't think I will be needing it as much, so might not use it as much then, just kind of play that one by ear.

I will keep an eye on it, and tell you of my results.

To get maximum airflow--and the only reason I know this is because it took me a few tries to get right--is both air direction (switch hot lead) and fin direction (flip fan blade over). At first I had the leads right such that the fan was blowing inward, but I had the fins backwards, so not much air was actually moving. Flipped the blade over and wow, that was more like it.

 

[Kent]

Sad to say I have an update on overheating "solution". Two days ago it was 88 degrees (hot for VT) and I decided to try pushing the Robin by finish mowing a half acre field that had grown up to about a foot deep of thick hay grass. I went slow to not bog the engine and get a good cut, but about an hour into the job the engine shut down, overheated, and wouldn't restart until after an hour+ cool down. Interesting that the overheating was NOT due to the temperature wire/FI computer shutting down the fuel pump as before (still power to the pump and it was running), but something else, I suspect maybe vapor lock?? Lots of bubbling in the fuel filter and before shutting down the engine cuts out then surges a few times before shutting down completely.

Last Fall I cut the same field and also another half-acre field with the brush mower in one swoop also in 80 degree weather, with even taller grass, but could not push the engine to overheat. So I assumed my fix was invincible.

Oh good, another problem to solve! Or at least I can promise to be smarter by choosing the right implement for the job at hand (never finish mow tall grass) and taking a break every now and then.

The exhaust manifold bolts are tight. What else could have changed?

I am realizing that the CFMs of the fan seem about half what they were last Fall when the fan was like a tornado and kept the engine cool. I am going to take it apart today to clean/lube if possible, but if that doesn't help I will explore another fan manufacturer with a stellar reputation for long life and more waterproof (perhaps SPAL, which means I would have to change to a larger fan).

 

[MuncyBob]

Sorry to hear about this. I am very careful not to overheat with the mower these days. I will only cut for about an hour and then shut down for at least an hour before resuming. I must say that the CFR fan I have side mounted is not pushing as much air as I had hoped. I have tried all configurations(reverse blades & polarity). From the sound of the fan, I really had hoped for more air movement. If anybody finds a fan that is more like the tornado I was hoping for...I'm all ears.

 

[marrt]

Has anyone tried reversing the direction of the hydraulic fan too? In theory, this may sound like a dumb idea since it would push heat from the hydraulic radiator back into the engine compartment. However, I'm wondering if the high heat of the hydraulic system may be part of the problem I noticed my fuel lines and filter rest on top of a lot of hydraulic hoses. Over time, this heats up the fuel lines since these hoses are 180 degrees or hotter.

I never really liked the hydraulic fan in suck mode anyway because of the reduction in efficiency (fans blow better than suck) and because it draws so much dust into the engine compartment.

 

[jfischer]

I put a 10" one on the opposite side of the exhaust, and reversed the blades, and polarity, and it sounds like a jet, but blows a ton of air across the engine. Feels like a furnace on the exhaust side. Did you reverse both blades, and the polarity, and how big of a fan did you put on it? I think mine is the same company that made the one on the hydraulic fan, but is a 10" rather then a 12"

Sorry to hear about this. I am very careful not to overheat with the mower these days. I will only cut for about an hour and then shut down for at least an hour before resuming. I must say that the CFR fan I have side mounted is not pushing as much air as I had hoped. I have tried all configurations(reverse blades & polarity). From the sound of the fan, I really had hoped for more air movement. If anybody finds a fan that is more like the tornado I was hoping for...I'm all ears.

 

[joshlee]

Hi Farmall 140, you may be the nearest person to me that has a Power Trac? I live near Lewistown and just bought a PT-425 back in Feb. Does everyone have overheating problems with PT's? Except people that have the Kohler engines.

Sorry to hear about this. I am very careful not to overheat with the mower these days. I will only cut for about an hour and then shut down for at least an hour before resuming. I must say that the CFR fan I have side mounted is not pushing as much air as I had hoped. I have tried all configurations(reverse blades & polarity). From the sound of the fan, I really had hoped for more air movement. If anybody finds a fan that is more like the tornado I was hoping for...I'm all ears.

 

[Marks481]

Does everyone have overheating problems with PT's? Except people that have the Kohler engines.

I wouldn't say that. The PT422/425 runs hot, but doesn't normally shut down because of temperature. I have spent a couple hours bush hogging 12-18" grass in a pasture with no ill effects.

But that isn't stopping me from trying to make the machine run cooler. So I too have insulated the exhaust manifold, added an auxiliary fan to the side, relocated the fuel pump (stock fuel mechanical fuel pump in my model was mounted on the left side of the engine, at the height of the muffler which was about 4" away from it.... just asking for vapor lock, although I can't remember ever having a problem with that). Latest action was swapping out to a new exhaust manifold and muffler (following KMAs and Kent's lead). Less backfiring on shutdown, but my uncalibrated eye says it really isn't running any cooler.

However, I'm wondering if the high heat of the hydraulic system may be part of the problem I noticed my fuel lines and filter rest on top of a lot of hydraulic hoses. Over time, this heats up the fuel lines since these hoses are 180 degrees or hotter.

I think you are right. I have rerouted my fuel hoses to run them far way from the exhaust manifold, but I still get bubbling in the fuel tank from vapor in the gas lines after I shut down from a long session of mowing. My fuel filter and fuel line is resting on top of one of the hydraulic pumps. Looks like time for a little more re-arranging.

 

[MuncyBob]

Hey Josh, been to your neck of the woods several times. I had vapor lock/shut down a few years ago and a new fuel pump was needed and corrected the problem so far. My concern about overheating is due to the $1200 or so I just spent having my heads reworked and a valve job done. Mechanic told me it was most likely a heat related issue that caused my problem.

Jeff, the fan I have is the 8" CFR, I guess I should have gone larger. My next step is to cut out the mesh area at the fan hoping for an increase in air flow. I have tried all possible configurations of blade/polarity, I just expected more air flow...it sounds like it should be pushing more than it does. I have not yet purchased the Robin muffler kit but expect to soon.

 

[BobRip]

As I understand it you have the new fan blowing inward and the old hydraulic fan blowing outward. This sound like most of your air flow would go from one fan to the next. Other areas in the compartment would not get much air flow. If what I am saying is correct, then I would try blowing air outward with both fans. Air will then come into the engine compartment from many areas.