Electricians: can neutral be anything but white?

   / Electricians: can neutral be anything but white?
  • Thread Starter
#31  
I was talking about 110v as I don't think he mentioned 220v. Neutral carrys half the load in an AC circuit. Run two separate 10A tools simultaneously across a single 14ga neutral= bad idea. The hots will be carrying 10A each but that neutral will have 20A on it.

It won't have 20 amps as long as the 2 10a loads are on different hot legs. Aaron saying same breaker meaning a double pole. But two hots that are 180* appart.

It's accepted practice to share the neutral as long as the hots are not the same phase.

Question now becomes about weather te gfis will work
 
   / Electricians: can neutral be anything but white? #32  
Question now becomes about weather te gfis will work
They will work if you feed both circuits from the same 2 pole GFCI breaker, or use a GFCI outlet in each box.

Aaron Z
 
   / Electricians: can neutral be anything but white? #33  
It won't have 20 amps as long as the 2 10a loads are on different hot legs. Aaron saying same breaker meaning a double pole. But two hots that are 180* appart.

It's accepted practice to share the neutral as long as the hots are not the same phase.

Question now becomes about weather te gfis will work

That is the only way it would be acceptable, but the cost for the AFCI breakers would seem to me a wash versus just sizing the conduit properly and doing it right. Only time I would sign off on sharing neutrals is on remodel work where re-wiring would be prohibitive.
 
   / Electricians: can neutral be anything but white? #34  
My understanding is, when installing a shared neutral circuit, (known as an Edison circuit), you are now required to tie both breaker handles together, like a double pole breaker is.

That way, if you turn a breaker off, to work on the wiring, the neutral wire is not potentially carrying current from the other breaker.

I have also been told you need separate neutrals, if you are running arc fault breakers. That's why there is now 12/4 romex.
 
   / Electricians: can neutral be anything but white? #35  
My understanding is, when installing a shared neutral circuit, (known as an Edison circuit), you are now required to tie both breaker handles together, like a double pole breaker is.




I have also been told you need separate neutrals, if you are running arc fault breakers. That's why there is now 12/4 romex.
right on all accounts. You dont need ark fault in garage or shop. You do need gfci. Remember a gfci breaker is almost $50.00 but a gfci outlet is about $11.00
 
   / Electricians: can neutral be anything but white?
  • Thread Starter
#36  
Let me see if I understand my options. Let's forget about how the shared neutral is going to be tied in to hots on different poles, with a double pole breaker (or breakers tied together). I understand all that. Even though some don't judging by the comments here.

So basically, my options are
1. Expensive gfci breakers
2. Every outlet on a shared neutral circuit must be gfci and not just the first in line
3. Don't share neutrals. And only first outlet be a gfci and wire to standard breakers.

If that's correct, I'll probably just run the extra neutrals. All total there is going to be about 6 or 7 circuits and 30 or 40 recepticals. Not sure the exact count yet cause I don't know where all I may opt for doubles instead of singles.

I already have a ton of boxes, covers, and a 5 gallon bucket full of recepticals and switches. Also have a ton of breakers and rolls of wire. What I don't have is a ton of GFIs. I have maybe 6. So instead of buying another 30 GFIs or expensive breakers, I think it will be best to pull extra wire, since I have plenty, and use the receps and breakers I have already.
 
   / Electricians: can neutral be anything but white? #37  
I have some circuits wired this way in my pole barn (Edison wiring or shared neutral wiring). It works and is legal as long as the breakers are tied (mine are). That said, I wouldn't do it again. The wire savings is negated by the limited ability to daisy chain outlets off the GFCI and the inability to use GFCI breakers in the box. I would recommend running independent conduit for each circuit, which is what I would do if I was doing it today. Conduit is pretty cheap and I like easy pulls.
 
   / Electricians: can neutral be anything but white? #38  
right on all accounts. You dont need ark fault in garage or shop. You do need gfci. Remember a gfci breaker is almost $50.00 but a gfci outlet is about $11.00

GFI breakers are inconvenient to reset. Sometimes extremely inconvenient. I had them in my previous home.

There are over 80 circuit breakers in the house I live in now. Though, there are lots of GFI's, in the kitchen, and bathrooms. There are no GFI breakers.
 
   / Electricians: can neutral be anything but white? #39  
Let me see if I understand my options. Let's forget about how the shared neutral is going to be tied in to hots on different poles, with a double pole breaker (or breakers tied together). I understand all that. Even though some don't judging by the comments here.

So basically, my options are
1. Expensive gfci breakers
2. Every outlet on a shared neutral circuit must be gfci and not just the first in line
3. Don't share neutrals. And only first outlet be a gfci and wire to standard breakers.

If that's correct, I'll probably just run the extra neutrals. All total there is going to be about 6 or 7 circuits and 30 or 40 recepticals. Not sure the exact count yet cause I don't know where all I may opt for doubles instead of singles.

I already have a ton of boxes, covers, and a 5 gallon bucket full of recepticals and switches. Also have a ton of breakers and rolls of wire. What I don't have is a ton of GFIs. I have maybe 6. So instead of buying another 30 GFIs or expensive breakers, I think it will be best to pull extra wire, since I have plenty, and use the receps and breakers I have already.

No no no. There has been a lot of bad info on this thread, with some very good info in between (from the resident electricians). If you use a GFi outlet in the first outlet position from the panel - AND wire it CORRECTLY - then you can protect the remaining outlets on that circuit as GFI also. The GFI outlet does not care that the neutral is shared - that issue is downstream of the outlet. It only cares what goes in and out of that outlet (hot to neutral). Now when that neutral current joins up with out of phase neutral current from the other half of the circuit, they will partially cancel out, thus reducing the load on the neutral wire (which is why neutral derating is allowed), but that affects NOTHING in the outlet itself - what goes in comes out, or it trips. What it does downstream is irrelevant. With that said, some equipment just does not work well with GFIs. I have a router table with a magnetic switch that will not work on a gfi to save it's life. So I improvise to a non GFI circuit, for now.

If you want to share neutrals to save wire, here is how i see it:
1. run 3 wires plus ground from a common 2 pole breaker (basically a 220V breaker)
2. Connect one hot and the neutral to your first GFI
3. Connect your second hot and neutral to your second GFI
4. Wire in the remainder of those circuit chains from each GFI, using the correct terminals on the GFI and only one hot, one neutral, of course

Now one more point - you can put way more than 3 outlets on a circuit, even in a shop. Keep in mind these are mostly for convenience and will never be loaded to max. In a one man shop, there is only so much you will have running at once. If you isolate semi-dedicated loads like a compressor or dust collector, then everything else can easily run on only a couple 110V circuits. This is where you can save yourself some headache. I ran my shop in the old house off 2 20A circuits, and never tripped breaker. Now I have 5 circuits in the new shop, but only because the shop is bigger (like 5x). Still never tripped a breaker. I'm talking about 110 circuits here. I run separate 220V circuits as required as the bigger tools require some specific stuff, but I also ran a couple general 220v 20A circuits with multiple outlets, as that is common for a lot of stuff I have. How much can one man run at once?

You are using some common sense overall in asking, but put more outlets on one circuit, and for gods sake, don't try to pull 9x 12ga wires through a 1/2" EMT conduit. That is nutz. No matter what NEC conduit fill allows. My 2 Ohms.
 
   / Electricians: can neutral be anything but white? #40  
Sharing a neutral might be fine but the idea makes me nervous. I'd want a neutral with every hot but I'm sure a real electrician will come along shortly and set the record straight.

Every house in my neighborhood built in the 60s shares a neutral wire to the utility room. Any time a household lights are flickering, I know that neighbor is doing their laundry.
 

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