E/85 Flex Fuel The Documentary called Pump...

[Copperhead]

Too bad you didn't go further in the links. The 1st and the 2nd link I posted did indeed say that ethanol subsidies were eliminated at the end of 2011. True, there are some still for cellulosic ethanol research and startup, but corn ethanol is still the main source of ethanol in this country and what I addressed. The 2nd article confuses those ethanol subsidies with Ethanol blender pump grants, which are retail gas station grants. Ethanol producers do not sell at retail level.

Yes, ethanol blends and the availability of non ethanol blends is state controlled. The EPA Renewable Fuels mandate is on total amount nationwide. How states choose to allow or not allow ethanol free gasoline is their call. If E10 is a mandate nationwide, then please explain how I have ethanol free regular and premium available in every town around me, any day of the year? Whether someone cannot get ethanol free gasoline in their area is decided at the state or regional level. But here in ethanol central, surrounded by 46 ethanol plants, we have as much ethanol free gas as we want, all the time. There is no federal mandate that all gasoline be blended with ethanol, or that only ethanol blended gas be available at the pump.

Even the E15 thing, it will be an option to use just as well. Even then, the pumps clearly state that it is intended only for 2001 and newer cars. I have E15 pumps near me and I have fueled with it. The pumps are clearly labeled.

 

[AxleHub]

Greetings Copperhead,

You desire to fight a battle that has already been lost and declared dead. And my goal is not to make you look bad or win a debate that is already concluded.

The only SUSTAINING quantity of fuel outlets offering an ethanol product are

EVERY fuel outlet in the country . . for e10.

And its at every station selling gasoline . . Everyone. Because it is Federally required.

And every other form of gas with ethanol has either been no longer offered or has declined by the majority of stations nationally. Ethanol as an expanding activity is long dead. My city not far from Iowa had 25 stations carrying e85 8 or so years ago . . And now there are 2. We currently have more compressed ng choices in town than e85 or any ethanol above 10. This trend is true in virtually every state in the nation except iowa. You are an island of contracted suppliers and farmer owned ethanol plants who must continue.

Every publicly traded ethanol company owned by publicly traded shareholders is in financial trouble or much worse. Many have disappeared entirely. Many 100s of millions (maybe billions) have been lost by shareholders.

Go to Minnesota, Wisconsin, Il, mo, sd . . . Its true everywhere you travel and any direction you head.

What you do find is bio diesel, manure processors, landfill methane reclamation, wind, geothermal or hydro. And "small oil" developing exponential quantities of oil and gas reserve gains at cheaper and cheaper prices with far more friendly envirnmental impacts. Other than federally mandated e10, ethanol is dead as a movement because of all the reasons I previously highlighted in past posts. Even links you supply defeat your arguments.

Isolated Japanese on isolated islands kept fighting wwii as long as 1952 even though no enemy existed and no battle was left to be fought.

I aologize if I've made you look bad . . it wasn't my intention or goal. But your point of view is easily debated by anyone who looks at the state of ethanol and its lack of success.

 

[woodlandfarms]

So a few things Axel

OK, we can argue wether or note Ethanol is dead at this moment, but I would not disagree with you that it is on life support in terms of a viable consumer product. Current cheap domestic is making it hard to rationalize Ethanol. But how long will these low prices realistically last?

As for its death, one thing to note is that due to federal mandates on ethanol, ethanol plants are not going out of business. Contrary they seem to be thriving.

But, the bigger issue here and the one I brought up is why. Is it failure of a product or something abit more nefarious.

So while down, I am not sure Ethanol is out. We have a finite amount of oil based resources in the US. I think that is something we can both agree on. The need for internal combustion engines, and oil based products, does not seem surmountable in either the near or long term future (Cars may go electric, but we need oil for the plastics they are constructed out of). Airplanes and heavy equipment will have a greater issue converting to electric.

I am really not sure how you made Copper look bad. His response has been clear and well informed. Can you clarify why you think your response made him look bad?

 

[k0ua]

Isolated Japanese on isolated islands kept fighting wwii as long as 1952 even though no enemy existed and no battle was left to be fought.

Well.... actually for even a bit longer.. about 22 years longer...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirō_Onoda

 

[AxleHub]

So a few things Axel

1. But how long will these low prices realistically last?


2. As for its death, one thing to note is that due to federal mandates on ethanol, ethanol plants are not going out of business. Contrary they seem to be thriving.


3. But, the bigger issue here and the one I brought up is why. Is it failure of a product or something abit more nefarious.


4. So while down, I am not sure Ethanol is out. We have a finite amount of oil based resources in the US. I think that is something we can both agree on.


5. I am really not sure how you made Copper look bad. His response has been clear and well informed. Can you clarify why you think your response made him look bad?

Woodlandfarms . . I numbered your comments to make it easier to respond.

1. Goldman Sachs claims years like to 2020 while others claim 16 months and others claim to end of this year. But the reality is that "small oil" has now developed and created a way to drill and develop at much lower costs and be profitable than just 1.5 years ago.

2. But Copperhead claims ethanol isn't a federal mandate/requirement.
And which publicly traded ethanol producers are "thriving" ? The 10k and 10qs don't show anything but survival mode for 2 years or more now.

3. Ethanol has suffered because it was "pitched" to farmers as hero product but that hero had "feet of clay". Switch grasses in south america are good but we don't have the same type here nor the enormous amounts of available land required. Farmers were "told" the low quality corn and all stalk etc. would be wonderful for ethanol . . . And that was totally not true. Any moonshiner from the 20s and 30s knew better. Transport to plants was also expensive and dirty especually with non compressed inferior ingredient materials. And water issues, roads, and good plant locations all entered in as well as air quality. Either you used good or best corn to get efficiency or scrap cheap ingredients to get poor efficiency . And the other issue is vehicles do better with a lubricant (oil) instead of a cleaner (ethanol).

4. Up till 2002 we'd have agreed that we have a finite oil quantity. But since then it has completely changed. Social Security could only hope it could last as long as our oil supplies now. Just in the Dakotas alone we went from an estimated 1.5 billion barrels in 2004 to 8 billion by 2008 and it keeps growing and growing at exponential numbers. . and then the same technology discoveries worked in eastern and central and southwestern regions of the country. Why do you think OPEC is creating its own financial disaster on itself? They realized we now have the capacity to out produce Saudi Arabia and do it for many decades longer. So June 2014 they got desperate and started trying to crush our oil and gas exploration efforts. They used to laugh at our ethanol efforts because they knew you can't swap out food for fuel. But they are absolutely paniced at our technology gains from 2012 till 2014. But its even worse for them now . . because we now developed lower production costs too. AND we even discovered that oil and gas are actually renewable energy sources that we never knew 10 years ago.

5. Just read the back posts . . lots of contradictions. Everyone can pick their favorites. And it was not my intention or desire to make others look inaccurate or dated.

P.s. And now there's green oil . . . a river of it (pun fully intended)

 

[Copperhead]

Axlehub, you are going to have to explain why it is that I regularly have ethanol free regular and premium available in my area year round if E10 is mandated for all gasoline. It has been the same around here since ethanol came on the scene in the late 70's. I can get ethanol free, E10, E15, E20, E30, and E85 any day of the week, year round. I can drive to any town around me and get ethanol free gasoline at regular retail gas stations. No special boating/marine or outdoor sports type outlets, just plain 'ol Casey's general stores in my area and several other brand retail fuel outlets.

No, the Renewable Fuels Standard only specifies that a certain amount, presently around 13 billion gallons, of ethanol be used in motor vehicles. How that is divided up is totally up to states and consumer fuel choices. I am presently using E85 as it offers the lowest cost per mile for me right now, even with the lower mpg. And even if your contention that ethanol is "required for all gasoline", there is not enough ethanol being made to lace all gasoline as E10. In 2014, 136.78 billon gallons of gasoline were consumed in the U.S. per government figures. For 2014, there was 13.68 billion gallons of ethanol produced in the U.S. Now, on the surface, that would seem like the amount to blend a 10% for all gasoline. But you have to take into account the gallons of other blends... E20, E30, and E85, and alcohol beverages, yes, some of the ethanol goes to beverage makers. The largest source of ethanol for U.S. Vodka makers, for one, is from the same corn ethanol plants that makes the fuel. So when you factor all things out, there is no way 10% of every gallon in the U.S. can even be replaced with ethanol, even if it was mandated. And we produce twice the ethanol that Brazil does, the next largest producer of ethanol, but they consume a large chunk of that in country, so it is not a major source for us.

I can't speak to your area, but the number of E20, E30, and E85 pumps in my area has expanded quite a bit. In just the small town of Newton near me, I have 3 stations to choose from offering E85 at the pumps. That is a town of just over 15,000 people, so it is not some sort of major metro area. And every town around me also has E85 pumps. And every town around me also has ethanol free gasoline.

Look, it really doesn't matter. Corn derived ethanol is here to stay. It isn't going anywhere. And even if it was subsidized substantially, at say $1 a gallon, the cost per year to do that would be less than just one month expenditure during the Iraq war from 2004-2010. But ethanol lost it's subsidies at the end of 2011, so it is a cost effective product to use. If anyone doesn't want to use it, then don't buy it. Can't get ethanol free fuel in your area? Then move if it is going to cause you such grief.

Oh, and worried about subsidies? The fossil fuels folks got, world wide, $750 billion to $1 trillion in subsidies last year alone. An article published just 3 days ago showed that current oil industry subsidies are at $160 billion in the U.S. alone. Over $1 per gallon of gas consumed in the U.S. alone! I think your outrage is misplaced.

 

[AxleHub]

Axlehub, you are going to have to explain why . . . . .

Greetings Copperhead. Well you'll notice what part of your post I copied.

When we started this "debate" it appeared you were poorly or incorrectly informed. Then later it appeared you were actually confused. But as your posts have continued . . I sense you are deliberately mis-stating or deliberately avoiding.

Its like watching someone who is "locked into party politics regardless of the candidates running".

I wonder if others notice how you deliberatelt don't mention you are from Iowa. Or how you keep repeating statements others like myself have said . . But you alter the statements.

My posts on ethanol have been both factual and clearly stated. Meanwhile your posts have contradicted your own links you've provided or contradict what other readers can visually see in all the states they drive in or thru.

We're done. Either you won't ackowledge what the ethanol industry promised to deliver and never accomplished . . . or you think "the promise fulfilled" is somehow just not understood.

OPEC really wanted us to head down the wrong road known as corn ethanol . . it is and always was their desire that we waste our time, money, and effort with it because they could happily keep selling us their products at expensive price levels.

They knew full well that we needed to be distracted from the real solution possibilities and when we finally got serious about the real solutions . . our enemies have done everything they could/can to bankrupt those real solutions.

Corn ethanol isn't even a blip on the radar screen as our solution. Not a solution to our energy needs . . not a solution to our farmers.

 

[Copperhead]

No, never said it was ever a solution, it is just a supplement to fuel needs. I am a all of the above kind of person.... wind, solar, nuclear, NG, oil, coal, ethanol, butanol, biodiesel, propane, hydro, algae, biomass, etc. What ever gets the job done and people can choose what they want to buy for their needs. Each product can provide something to a particular niche that makes it the best choice.

I didn't deliberately not mention I am from Iowa. It has shown below the avatar that I live in Central Iowa on each and every post. Who is being disingenuous now?

And whether one has good pricing and availability is regional, never have disputed that. I look at it that I am using ethanol by choice and liking it, and it frees up gas for those that ethanol is either the devil incarnate or the pricing doesn't make it a good alternative where they live. No matter how you look at it, it does supplant some gasoline demand. One cannot interject 13 billion gallons of ethanol into the supply chain and thereby reduce the total gasoline consumption somewhat, and as such, help keep gas prices lower due to the reduced demand.

I am not sure what you are looking for regarding what the ethanol industry promised to deliver. They seem to be doing what they set out to do. Provide another reliable market for corn growers, provide a laundry list of essential byproducts and feed supplements from ethanol production that are in huge demand both here and outside the U.S., and provide an alternative fuel that consumers can choose to use. I get a good value in using E85 that is available to me, so at current pricing, I choose it. Sure, other areas of the country don't have the availability and pricing I enjoy for it in my area, but that is because they are not surrounded by 46 ethanol plants like I am. No problem, I can use the ethanol and they can use the gas, propane, or NG to power their vehicle. No complaints from me.

You are right... it is not a solution, it is as supplement.... to both energy needs and farmers. it does supplement the fuel supply, and farmers have a more reliable corn market where the traditional highs and lows are leveled a little. And the feed supplements derived from the DDG that comes out of ethanol production, like biolys and other products, have become essential especially to pork and poultry producers. And even the Vietnamese have been trying to buy up as much of the ethanol byproducts as they can for their own animal production. These high protein, highly digestible feed supplements that also help prevent intestinal colitis in beef and pork, are totally from the production of ethanol. Over 17 lb of these feed supplements from every bushel of corn used to make ethanol. A critical component to poultry and egg laying production. Oh.. works out pretty good having all these ethanol plants in Iowa... Iowa produces more eggs than any other state.

So, yeah, I think ethanol producers have delivered on what it set out to do. Obviously not to your liking. But then, don't use it if it is causing you so much grief. With all the problems facing America, not sure that ethanol rates much more than a passing glance.

 

[eth555]

Back to the original point of this thread the documentary called Pump. I watched this documentary this evening since we got some rain. I found it very interesting and like its point of view of choice in the fuel market and I believe this is the way we need to go; choice. I always wondered why America had electric street cars back in the day and wondered what had happened to them, so found it interesting big oil and GM bought the systems throughout American and dismantled them; later charged and found guilty but by then it was too late. It seemed very straight forward and not slanted in one direction, other than giving us the choice to choose our fuels and the price we have paid to use oil.

 

[crashz]

In my area, there is one working E85 pump left (east bound on the MA turnpike at the Sturbridge rest area) that I know of. As of Saturday it was $0.04 per gallon more expensive that regular gas. I'm not happy about it, but I don't see impending doom to the ethanol market.

I won't re-hash a few other threads, but ethanol is used in gas as a replacement to MBTE. Please do yourself the favor of looking up that horror show.

A statement was mentioned that I must comment on: "Oil is NOW renewable". Sorry, this is false on a reasonable time frame. Old non-productive wells may be productive again, but that is because the easily recoverable oil/gas flows quickly, and remaining pockets of oil/gas will eventually fill those voids. It still remains a finite resource.

Of course, if you meant over millions of years, a few tectonic plate shifts and an Ice Age or two, then yes, oil is renewable. Scale may be important to this argument.

Natural gas is actually renewable, but that could be difficult to pitch to the green crowd. Decomposing carbon based materials will release natural gas from bacteria braking it down. But the only efficient way to harness this is tapping into buried reserves or closed, lined landfills. Both of which are currently being done. But if we could tap into the natural gas produced by animals and people, it would be a windfall of energy reserves!

Do I win? I did include a humorous fart joke for the record.