DK40SE HST No start - fuel problem? electrical?

[cflacus]

I have a similar no-start problem with my DK40HSE, 2012 model year, but seems to be related to Stop Solenoid.

I have recently replaced the starter motor, and now the engine will crank, but not start.
Here are my symptoms:
1. When the key is turned to on, there is no clicking sound from the stop solenoid.
2. I can hear and feel the start relay click, but there is no similar click click coming from the stop solenoid relay.
3. Both Start and Stop relays pass the resistance/continuity tests previously mentioned in this thread.
4. I have switched out the Stop relay just in case.
5. The key switch passes continuity tests ok.
6. The Neutral, Low Range and High range dash lights work, as well as the battery, PTO, and Cruise lights.
7. The Glow plugs seem to be getting enough current.

So, does the Stop Solenoid need to be replaced, or is the problem in my Display Unit, which sends a signal to the Stop Relay? and how can I trouble shoot these? Could my problem be elsewhere?

Sorry if I've posted in the wrong place, or should I have started another thread?
I'm sure no expert on electrical issues, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Chris

 

[ritcheyvs]

Chris, Recommend you start a new thread to avoid confusion. In the mean time ...

Since you suspect the stop solenoid, you might as well check that first. You should check your fuses, first before you disassemble anything. Especially check the alternator/engine stop fuse, the stop solenoid fuse, and the display unit fuse. Any of these fuses could disable the stop solenoid.

If you remove the plate with the oil fill port on the right side of the engine, you can view the pin of the injection pump rack. With the engine/key off, the stop solenoid is spring loaded to push the rack to the full aft position. When you turn the key to the on position, the the plunger on the stop solenoid SHOULD retract and allow the rack to move to the full forward position by force of a lighter spring. If that doesn't happen either the stop solenoid is not functioning or the injection pump has failed. To determine which, unbolt the stop solenoid and see if the IP rack moves easily by finger pressure. If the rack is jammed, you have a problem with the injection pump. If the rack moves freely, see if the stop solenoid functions (visually) by holding the case of the solenoid against the block and watch what happens when someone turns the key to "on." You should see the plunger retract when the key is turned to "on" and stay retracted as long as the key is on. Note that the ground return for the solenoid is through the case so the solenoid must be grounded (to the engine block) to test the solenoid while it's removed.

FYI, the stop solenoid has two coils: pull and hold. The low current hold coil (gets power from the key switch) will hold the plunger in the retract position as long as the key is in but will not retract the plunger. The high current pull coil, which retracts the plunger, is energized briefly (like one second) only when the key is first turned on. This is controlled by the display unit which provides the ground path for the stop relay relay coil.

In any case, I'd recommend troubleshooting to isolate the problem before you start swapping parts.

 

[cflacus]

Thanks for your help Ritcheyvs. I'll check out the injection pump rack, and remove and check the stop solenoid as soon as it gets light tomorrow. I have checked all of the fuses previously, and they are ok.

As you suggested, I started another thread to avoid confusion with this one. I'll post again tomorrow when I know more,

I appreciate your help.

 

[tabacman]

Ok long time no report. I've been changing jobs and a host of other things....
Had the beast towed to my nearest servicing Kioti dealer (expensive btw).
Report today was that fuel delivery was intermittent - so injection pump is a suspect part.... bad news number 1.
Worse news is that very low cylinder pressure was found. They tore off the head and no obvious issues (cracked casting / head gasket).
So tearing out bottom end they find the piston rings fused with burnt oil down into the grooves.
No apparent serious damage to cylinder walls (not sure if this has liners).
So his generous estimate to rebuild short block is over 4k.
Rather disappointing news.
He is going to call kioti and see what a new engine runs compared to his 125 an hour rebuild. I dont expect a good trade on that front.
At this point with 300 hours on a 2007 machine - i will lose a fortune.
I will not be buying kioti again. For a company that was founded as an engine builder - I'm not impressed at all.
Once this is done i will possibly have a rebuilt tractor for sale.
Sore spot is that i cant think what could possibly do this to a nearly new engine. Its never run hot never been low on coolant or oil.
I would be angry but I am too stunned to even get charged at this point.
Ill see if i can post the pics of the pistons from my phone.

 

[k0ua]

Ok long time no report. I've been changing jobs and a host of other things....
Had the beast towed to my nearest servicing Kioti dealer (expensive btw).
Report today was that fuel delivery was intermittent - so injection pump is a suspect part.... bad news number 1.
Worse news is that very low cylinder pressure was found. They tore off the head and no obvious issues (cracked casting / head gasket).
So tearing out bottom end they find the piston rings fused with burnt oil down into the grooves.
No apparent serious damage to cylinder walls (not sure if this has liners).
So his generous estimate to rebuild short block is over 4k.
Rather disappointing news.
He is going to call kioti and see what a new engine runs compared to his 125 an hour rebuild. I dont expect a good trade on that front.
At this point with 300 hours on a 2007 machine - i will lose a fortune.
I will not be buying kioti again. For a company that was founded as an engine builder - I'm not impressed at all.
Once this is done i will possibly have a rebuilt tractor for sale.
Sore spot is that i cant think what could possibly do this to a nearly new engine. Its never run hot never been low on coolant or oil.
I would be angry but I am too stunned to even get charged at this point.
Ill see if i can post the pics of the pistons from my phone.

Call Kioti corporate and see if they can help. They helped another member here that needed an engine replacement out of warranty. The mache was operated by his neighbor when it went TU. They provided a new engine, not the labor, but still not a bad deal for a tractor out of warranty. I think the guy was out around a grand or so.

 

[tabacman]

Call Kioti corporate and see if they can help. They helped another member here that needed an engine replacement out of warranty. The mache was operated by his neighbor when it went TU. They provided a new engine, not the labor, but still not a bad deal for a tractor out of warranty. I think the guy was out around a grand or so.

Thank k. After i hear from dealer i will try that option.

 

[k0ua]

here is the thread.. Might be worth a read to see if you can pick up anything useful to your situation.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...ered-piston-400-a.html?highlight=neighbor+was

 

[ritcheyvs]

That center piston looks like crap but all that carbon is likely a symptom of another problem, like poor fuel delivery/atomization/combustion. It's possible that those pistons and rings would be fine after they were cleaned up; they need to be measured and inspected for damage. Diesel engines with poor fuel delivery (bad injector spray pattern, air in fuel line, defective glow, running too cold, etc.) can produce a great deal of carbon that can clog rings or foul valve seats making normal compression readings meaningless. In mechanically-injected Diesel cars, the carbon cure is an "Italian tuneup" which means prolonged running at high power to burn off the carbon. This is typically described as "drive it like you stole it." In short, I'm not convinced there is anything mechanically wrong with your pistons and rings unless measurements indicate damage or wear. So before springing for an expensive rebuild, be sure your pistons, rings, bores, or bearings are actually damaged,

 

[tabacman]

That center piston looks like crap but all that carbon is likely a symptom of another problem, like poor fuel delivery/atomization/combustion. It's possible that those pistons and rings would be fine after they were cleaned up; they need to be measured and inspected for damage. Diesel engines with poor fuel delivery (bad injector spray pattern, air in fuel line, defective glow, running too cold, etc.) can produce a great deal of carbon that can clog rings or foul valve seats making normal compression readings meaningless. In mechanically-injected Diesel cars, the carbon cure is an "Italian tuneup" which means prolonged running at high power to burn off the carbon. This is typically described as "drive it like you stole it." In short, I'm not convinced there is anything mechanically wrong with your pistons and rings unless measurements indicate damage or wear. So before springing for an expensive rebuild, be sure your pistons, rings, bores, or bearings are actually damaged,

I spent my 3 hr delay in laguardia reading the thread regarding the shattered piston of chris'. I was thinking a similar thing. 4 of us have been cranking that motor a lot while troubleshooting, could have fouled the cylinders with all that.
I figure a injector rebuild with a cleaning and reassembling of the bottom end might be worth exploring.
User illini22 gave me some hope in that other thread - as i have my rig at ronsons in lowell - i really like them and have more confidence hearing the endorsement.
I'm just worried that fouled chambers send junk every where during when cranking.
Im going to wait for some more analysis by dealer before i start on a plan of action.... a shattered piston this is not.
Its still a dead machine tho.
But im still baffled by 20 minutes of cranking causing that much fouling.
We did have a nasty winter... any chance cold running would contribute?

 

[Illini22]

Tabacman, ronsons couldn't have been nicer. They had my my ck for month or two but, that was probably because they were going back and forth with kioti corp over troubleshooting, repairing vs replacing hst. Skip, the service manager was very nice. I ended up buying my dk40 from them because of what they did to repair my ck35.
The central Illinois dealer should have their kioti dealer taken away from them, they flat out refused to acknowledge that my tracter was dripping hydro fluid out of the hst, IN PLAIN VIEW! The sad thing is, they have 3 locations in and around that area, so they had the resources to figure out what Ronson ended up doing. I originally bought my tractor in Morris il. They were 10 miles from my home, unfortunately they switched to kubota right after (or nearly) I bought my kioti. Good luck