Solar power & Wind Power for residental use

[buickanddeere]

Complaining about toxicity of production of in example batteries or solar cells is pointless unless you complain about toxicity of production of in example cars, cement, HC based fuels and many other products.
In fact solar cells are way less toxic over their life than many other sources of energy. IC engines being one of the worst.
The march toward non hydrocarbon energy generation is inevitable.
Iowa produces 30% energy from wind. Mid American energy (local utility and one of two large energy generators in Iowa) is the largest operator of wind generators in the state. It will produce 50% of their energy from wind by the end of 2016. The utility reported that wind will be the cheapest source of energy over next 30 years. Since they own them the generators are 100% dispatchable. It gives them greater flexibility than in example coal burning plant. I have never heard that MAE had to pay other generators for not producing energy.

I am a shareholder in our local electric cooperative. Based on annual report the cost of infrastructure per customer about is about $70/month. There are many customers that have electric bill less than $80/month including energy charge. Those are in fact subsidized by those who use more energy. Should the utility charge them because they heat with wood?

What is the cost per Kw Hr ? The cost of the bill alone means nothing.
Wind is dispatchable to shut it down but it won't dispatch on when the wind is not blowing.
Our turbines are located in some of the best locations in the world. Capacity factor runs around 34 %
I have seen those 30% and 50% numbers. They occur in the spring and fall weekends when the grid demand is the absolute lowest. While on the same day near record winds are blowing and the sun is shinning on solar.
I keep a check on output of various sources on the Ontario grid and am aware of the monthly and annual numbers . Check sygration.com if you don't believe me .

 

[buickanddeere]

Hmmm.

Spinning reserve. It's always there for when a conventional source goes down which they do.
Periodic table. It'being added to and even has slots for new arrivals.
10 into 1 is rather interesting. Just think about all those places out there that we don't see into. It's happening there.

And cost. That is a real mess. However, just on basics, the solar & wind do pay out. The grid makes varying sources viable and that reserve spinning herring makes for good drivel!

The amount of spinning reserve is higher on a solar/wind utility grid vs a conventional grid.
There is a limited number of electrons in a pound of lithium, lead etc to transfer from the - to the positive plate . No amount of research is going to increase that number . Hence there is a hard limit . Energy density of batteries are now plateaued . Expensive and complex construction of batteries may eek out a few percent more useable capacity. However here just is not any way to increase battery energy density 5 or 10 times from where it is now to match diesel fuel.
That news is going to anger and disappoint some people who have plans to save the earth. Do you want the truth or do you want to hear what you want to hear?
There are people who still cling to the idea of the 200mpg carburator and the engine that runs on tap water. And won't change their minds no matter how the laws of physics are explained to them. They don't want to hear it and have thier dream of good things fail.
Our green power is 20% of the utility power and 3% of total annual generation. Much of that on nights and weekends when Michigan and NY is paid to take the surplus power.

 

[NorTracNY]

Net metering is not without it's drawbacks for the utility company. The utility is now subsidizing those net systems via every other electrical user's monthly utility bill . There is no free lunch, somebody has to pay for that spinning reserve.
Speaking of paying. My utility rate has risen from 7 cents/kwhr flat rate to 18 cents/Kw/hr if we load shift 3/4 of our usage to the lowest rates at night. All this to subsidize wind, solar and natural gas turbines . Last year 20% of the utility bill paid for 3% of the "green" power generated. Then there is the $$$ our small 12,000-18,000Mw utility pays green producers to shutdown during surpluses. And another billion to pay NY and Michigan to take surplus power.
Hydro Electric Sites are bypassing water around the turbines nights and weekends as it's cheaper than having to pay a negative rate to generate electricity while wind, solar and NG is being paid subsidized rates at the same moment.
In my position it has become rather wearying to have the general public and politicians supported by the general public. Telling us how clean wind and solar can operate the country. With how a Tesla battery pack can operate a building over night and on days without sun or wind. The Tesla supporters are either shocked or won't believe the Tesla battery alone is not enough, that it doesn't plug into the wall outlet as is. Start talking charger, inverter, transfer switch and labour and they become bewildered, disbelieve or become angry. Ask who pays the $25,000 and the talk starts about how the utility or the " government" should be paying the $25,000. Who is the utility and the government ?
Then there are the home tinkerers who think that a 400W wind turbine 30ft in the air, a Kw of PV cells and a set of golf cart batteries will operate the typical house and electric car for a thousand bucks.........
There are those who trot out the line about " next generation solar cells" or next generation batteries. After watching Star Trek, people are certain that power supplies seen on phasers could be powering all vehicles and machines.
There is only so much power density in a pound of lead, lithium, sodium or NiCi. There are people certain that with enough research that the equivalent of " storing 10 gallons of water in a 1 gallon pail" is possible.
There is also a limit to how quickly the battery can be charged or discharged without rapid failure, explosion or fire. Internal resistance, thermal dissipation and I2R losses can not be reduced to negligible levels.
The general public is also unaware how toxic the manufacturing and disposal process regarding PV cells and batteries. The bulk of PV production today is in the 3rd world where the EPA does not exist. Moving EPA regulated production from the western countries may make a NIMBY's yard cleaner yet they don't care or know about a 3rd world backyard.
The sheer number of non technical people, even technical people outside the electrical business. Who sincerely believe it can all be rainbows, lollipops and Unicorns is disconcerning. If the nasty greedy Big Oil/Energy Companies quit purchasing 200mpg carburators and put up a few acres of PV cells. Tell them otherwise and the response is disbelief , disappointment and/or anger.

That's WONDERFUL that you have experience that you'd like to share. I think we all do. This entire message is all over the place talking about what other people say that you don't agree with. Have you actually had people bring up Star Trek when they talk about energy or is this just a put down of some people? Please, share what your experience is. What is it you're suggesting for the energy needs/usage of this country? How should the government be involved? Please tell us what you think should be done. It may be more useful than telling us what you don't like about other people's opinions. As an engineer and scientist, I especially love learning from people who actually have data behind things.

 

[Egon]

No comment the Periodic table??

Surplus energy being used doesn't sound surplus. Payments fall into a different category than the physical proponents/capabilities.

When, if the wind and solar component is increase what happens to the standby spinning?
What's the consequences of a steam generating system going Down as compared to a solar- wind system?
What's the consequence of a turnaround for each system.
Over how large an area does each system locate it's generating capabilities.
Toxicities yes there are those. But let's talk about those in the atomic or carbon fuelled plants. Are you implying they have non?


Are you the only educated one in the world seeing as you mention education quite often and the deficiency of such frequently.

The answere's lie "Blowing in the Wind"

 

[buickanddeere]

That's WONDERFUL that you have experience that you'd like to share. I think we all do. This entire message is all over the place talking about what other people say that you don't agree with. Have you actually had people bring up Star Trek when they talk about energy or is this just a put down of some people? Please, share what your experience is. What is it you're suggesting for the energy needs/usage of this country? How should the government be involved? Please tell us what you think should be done. It may be more useful than telling us what you don't like about other people's opinions. As an engineer and scientist, I especially love learning from people who actually have data behind things.

There are opinions, dreams , wishes and good intentions. Then there are the laws of physics . Some of those opinions, dreams, wishes and good intentions are not possible , period. Some of the opinions, goals, dreams and opinions can be forced to work at higher expense and lower reliability than conventional power generation.
As I said there are some people who insist that the 200mpg carb and engines fueled by water exist. How does one converse with those well meaning but off the track people ?

 

[buickanddeere]

No comment the Periodic table??

Surplus energy being used doesn't sound surplus. Payments fall into a different category than the physical proponents/capabilities.

When, if the wind and solar component is increase what happens to the standby spinning?
What's the consequences of a steam generating system going Down as compared to a solar- wind system?
What's the consequence of a turnaround for each system.
Over how large an area does each system locate it's generating capabilities.
Toxicities yes there are those. But let's talk about those in the atomic or carbon fuelled plants. Are you implying they have non?


Are you the only educated one in the world seeing as you mention education quite and the deficiency of such frequently.

The answere's lie "Blowing in the Wind"

I'm not sure what you mean by the periodic table? The point is that every combination of elements have been tried. To manufacture a rechargeable battery that isn't particularly toxic, affordable and operates at room temperature and atmospheric pressure . There is nothing other that is practical outside of lead acid, NiCi , sodium and lithium. Unless the Almighty decides to rewrite the periodic table of elements .
As for payments. Wind and solar can not be built and operated without subsidized rates above the cheaper nuclear, hydro electric and fossil generation.
The entire solar and wind production has to be backed up with fossil. Example a 1000MW wind operation requires 1000Mw of spinning reserve .
10,000MW of conventional generation , 10 times more . Only requires approx 1000MW of spinning reserve .
The consequence of steam powered plants having to throttle and load follow minute by minute to follow wind gusts and clouds varying solar output. More wear and tear on the generating until vs load following hour by hour. Shut downs over weekends use fuel to stay hot and pressurized . Cooling and depressurization causes a pair of thermal and pressure cycles that shorten the life of all component$$$.
Wind and solar just don't have the energy density to be feasable.
There are some people who have a hate on for nuclear. Nuclear waste occupies a very small volume of area , quite compact and easy to locate. It's highly regulated and fenced away from the public. We can't say that about lead, cadmium , asbestos, PCB, dioxins and furans.
The used fuel is not waste but is fuel for the next generation of reactors .
You should hear the stories that the anti's tell about the proposed deep geological waste storage at the Bruce Nuclear Site . They just don't have the facts or don't want the facts.
As for experience in power generation. There is but a few here that are heavily involved in the business . It may look and sound simple enough to the average Joe. Then again remember farming is a pretty good scam to make lots of bucks. Throw a few seeds in the ground , let Mother Nature take care of it and fill the Farmer's pockets with government subsidies . Or so it appears to the casual observer.

 

[buickanddeere]

No comment the Periodic table??

Surplus energy being used doesn't sound surplus. Payments fall into a different category than the physical proponents/capabilities.

When, if the wind and solar component is increase what happens to the standby spinning?
What's the consequences of a steam generating system going Down as compared to a solar- wind system?
What's the consequence of a turnaround for each system.
Over how large an area does each system locate it's generating capabilities.
Toxicities yes there are those. But let's talk about those in the atomic or carbon fuelled plants. Are you implying they have non?


Are you the only educated one in the world seeing as you mention education quite and the deficiency of such frequently.

The answere's lie "Blowing in the Wind"

I'm not sure what you mean by the periodic table? The point is that every combination of elements have been tried. To manufacture a rechargeable battery that isn't particularly toxic, affordable and operates at room temperature and atmospheric pressure . There is nothing other that is practical outside of lead acid, NiCi , sodium and lithium. Unless the Almighty decides to rewrite the periodic table of elements .
As for payments. Wind and solar can not be built and operated without subsidized rates above the cheaper nuclear, hydro electric and fossil generation.
The entire solar and wind production has to be backed up with fossil. Example a 1000MW wind operation requires 1000Mw of spinning reserve .
10,000MW of conventional generation , 10 times more . Only requires approx 1000MW of spinning reserve .
The consequence of steam powered plants having to throttle and load follow minute by minute to follow wind gusts and clouds varying solar output. More wear and tear on the generating until vs load following hour by hour. Shut downs over weekends use fuel to stay hot and pressurized . Cooling and depressurization causes a pair of thermal and pressure cycles that shorten the life of all component$$$.
Wind and solar just don't have the energy density to be feasable.
There are some people who have a hate on for nuclear. Nuclear waste occupies a very small volume of area , quite compact and easy to locate. It's highly regulated and fenced away from the public. We can't say that about lead, cadmium , asbestos, PCB, dioxins and furans.
The used fuel is not waste but is fuel for the next generation of reactors .
You should hear the stories that the anti's tell about the proposed deep geological waste storage at the Bruce Nuclear Site . They just don't have the facts or don't want the facts.
As for experience in power generation. There is but a few here that are heavily involved in the business . It may look and sound simple enough to the average Joe. Then again remember farming is a pretty good scam to make lots of bucks. Throw a few seeds in the ground , let Mother Nature take care of it and fill the Farmer's pockets with government subsidies . Or so it appears to the casual observer.
How many wind turbines and how many batteries are required to operate the US electrical grid? How many miles of transmission lines ?

 

[NorTracNY]

There are opinions, dreams , wishes and good intentions. Then there are the laws of physics . Some of those opinions, dreams, wishes and good intentions are not possible , period. Some of the opinions, goals, dreams and opinions can be forced to work at higher expense and lower reliability than conventional power generation.
As I said there are some people who insist that the 200mpg carb and engines fueled by water exist. How does one converse with those well meaning but off the track people ?

Thanks for not sharing. You commented to a reply I had earlier. I gathered no useful information from your reply. With an actual degree in physics I would have happily conversed with you but it's clear I have wasted enough time. I believe Egon is correct that there certainly is something blowing in the wind...

 

[buickanddeere]

Time will tell as we keep track of retail prices and subsidizes paid.https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...0190321021&notif_t=notify_me_page&ref=m_notif

 

[Redneck in training]

Hmmm.

Spinning reserve. It's always there for when a conventional source goes down which they do.
Periodic table. It'being added to and even has slots for new arrivals.
10 into 1 is rather interesting. Just think about all those places out there that we don't see into. It's happening there.

And cost. That is a real mess. However, just on basics, the solar & wind do pay out. The grid makes varying sources viable and that reserve spinning herring makes for good drivel!

Coal burning plants have low "turn down" ratio. Depending on the type of coal and design of the boiler it can be anywhere between 10 to 30%. In other words the boiler can be operated between 90 and 105% without stabilization. As opposed to wind turbine that can be completely shut down and restarted within minutes. Provided that wind is blowing. If you spread wind generation over large area the availability and predictability of power significantly increases.
Needless to say that success of wind to lesser and PV to large degree depends on viable energy storage and management.