Diesel Generator

[lostcreekranch]

yes I have my own transformer, IDK how to tell that is there something that identifies it.

It will be clearly marked. Can you take pictures of it?

 

[BigCountry1689]

No furnace (Florida :laughing yes to the hot water heater it is a GE hybrid. Yes using it one at a time is fine for washers dryers and such but well pump, hot water heater and A/C come on as needed.

 

[BigCountry1689]

It will be clearly marked. Can you take pictures of it?

I can look at it tomorrow.

 

[justinramani]

My thinking... Propane standby generator liquid cooled rough numbers about $6400 plus install of tank, remember my county code says it has to be underground and to get the tank in any sort of substantial size that code would apply (250Gal Plus) so an additional $1200 or $45/Month (Rental) for the tank. Estimate from gas company was $1650 for install from gas company to run LP for appliances, plus still the electrician which adds another $950 because it is my brother in law doing the install. And in case you might suggest just putting in tanks myself my county has found away around that sort of thing. They do this little thing where the property appraiser sub contracts a home inspector once every 2 years to come out and walk your property. If you think I am kidding I am not so they walk and say oh that's new since 2 year's ago we need more $$ oh and that's against code we will need to let the building department know and on and on. So I have to do it right the first time to avoid a lot of cost later. So propane becomes a costly endeavor. Now I could go with the Home depot special but what is my longevity with an air cooled motor in a plastic enclosure. And I will still be $5000 into that. So it becomes a balancing of money and reason to me.

Propane Generator- $10,200 (22,000KW Liquid Cooled, ATS 200AMP)

Diesel Generator-

36KW Turbo, with 125Gal Tank, 200amp ATS, Level 2 enclosure, for $10,155 Plus-Install

24KW NON-turbo, 125Gal Tank, 200amp ATS, Level 2 enclosure, for $9,015 (1yr parts only) Plus Install


Wife WILL NOT budge on whole house I have tried. If it were me it would be a floor fan and a TV with a DVD player and I am golden, this would be a $700 endeavor.

You are not taking into consideration other benefits of installing a propane tank - want a heater in the garage? Just run a line. Want to upgrade to a tankless Water Heater - run a line. Want to stop getting your 20 pounder re-filled for the BBQ - run a line. Want a gas stove instead of electric - run a line.

 

[justinramani]

I am not sure what wet stacking is???

But there is a Kubota 11,000KW with a 13,500KW surge that I really like, it is a portable unit that would simplify install greatly. But what will it run?? Like I said wife wants whole house as normal.

I am still researching I haven't pulled my card out yet.

Wet stacking is a term that originally described a diesel engine dripping a thick, dark substance from its exhaust pipes or, as theyæ±*e often called, 都tacks. The dripping exhaust stacks were called 努et stacks, and the engine was said to be 努et stacking. The condition is caused by operating the engine at light load for extended periods, sending unburned fuel and soot into the exhaust system. Today, the term refers to an engine that isn稚 completely burning all the fuel thatç—´ delivered to its cylinders. Over a prolonged period, this condition can seriously degrade engine performance.

Most standby generators for facilities have a diesel engine as the prime mover. Many of these generators are routinely tested at no load or at light loads, for a variety of reasons. Building operators are reluctant to interrupt critical loads for transfer to generator and back to utility. Data center operators often refrain from switching uninterruptible power supplies (UPS) to emergency power during tests to avoid affecting battery warranties with excessive transfers. Generator sets may have been oversized in anticipation of load growth that didn稚 materialize. Whatever the reason, diesel generators that aren稚 regularly exercised at a significant fraction of their nameplate capacities are at risk for wet stacking.

 

[BigCountry1689]

Wet stacking is a term that originally described a diesel engine dripping a thick, dark substance from its exhaust pipes or, as theyæ±*e often called, 都tacks. The dripping exhaust stacks were called 努et stacks, and the engine was said to be 努et stacking. The condition is caused by operating the engine at light load for extended periods, sending unburned fuel and soot into the exhaust system. Today, the term refers to an engine that isn稚 completely burning all the fuel thatç—´ delivered to its cylinders. Over a prolonged period, this condition can seriously degrade engine performance.

Most standby generators for facilities have a diesel engine as the prime mover. Many of these generators are routinely tested at no load or at light loads, for a variety of reasons. Building operators are reluctant to interrupt critical loads for transfer to generator and back to utility. Data center operators often refrain from switching uninterruptible power supplies (UPS) to emergency power during tests to avoid affecting battery warranties with excessive transfers. Generator sets may have been oversized in anticipation of load growth that didn稚 materialize. Whatever the reason, diesel generators that aren稚 regularly exercised at a significant fraction of their nameplate capacities are at risk for wet stacking.

Thank you, that provides some clarity. So with that would a 20KW with a load shedding controller be more reasonable to avoid this condition( A/C has a 16,500watt start up then settles to about 4000watts). Most of the generators have about a 15% surge so I am thinking if I managed the appliances accordingly would allow a lower rating and still run everything. As long as she has the main things I think I can get by. But I know the wife will not go without A/C or clean cloths or hot water, no matter what. All those days living in a camper because the house was destroyed cured her of that.

I just don't know about propane, I live very rural down a road that floods in large areas and becomes impassable and I think that getting the propane truck there in one of those storms will be a nightmare. As apposed to loading the diesel tank on the tractor and going to get diesel at the store.

 

[justinramani]

Thank you, that provides some clarity. So with that would a 20KW with a load shedding controller be more reasonable to avoid this condition( A/C has a 16,500watt start up then settles to about 4000watts). Most of the generators have about a 15% surge so I am thinking if I managed the appliances accordingly would allow a lower rating and still run everything. As long as she has the main things I think I can get by. But I know the wife will not go without A/C or clean cloths or hot water, no matter what. All those days living in a camper because the house was destroyed cured her of that.

I just don't know about propane, I live very rural down a road that floods in large areas and becomes impassable and I think that getting the propane truck there in one of those storms will be a nightmare. As apposed to loading the diesel tank on the tractor and going to get diesel at the store.

I think that only your electrician can tell you what will work. The AC and water heater are going to surge every time they cycle on. You will likely need the larger unit if you plan to run your entire house uninterrupted. You may just need someone to come out twice a year and run a load bank on your generator. They can use the bank to simulate a full load for an extended period of time. Just know that $10k won't be the end of it. Your generator will need routine maintenance. I wouldn't be surprised if routine maintenance calls ran between $300 - $500 a pop.

 

[westcliffe01]

So here is my take, from a totally different perspective:

I figure, if the power is out, the things that absolutely have to work are:
1) Well pump (230V single phase) this is so that the toilets will flush and water will work for other things
2)AC in summer
3)Some lights at night so we can see what we are doing
4)Basic kitchen appliances (kettle, toaster, microwave, refrigerator, freezer)
5)Water heater - no-one wants a cold shower

Minor stuff like internet service, which may provide phone service, TV etc usually are no big deal.

When I bought the house, the previous owner had high wattage incandescent bulbs everywhere. Like 1.6kW in the kitchen and living room alone. If you ran them for an hour in the summer, the AC would kick on because of the heat load. So I have systematically eliminated all the lighting energy hogs. For lights where the starting delay and slow brightening of the CFLs was not acceptable, I went LED. So now I need less than 200W for all of the same lights, and they are actually brighter than before...

To run my house, I use a gas powered Robin Subaru generator that I believe I paid $700 for. 3.5kW, 115 - 0 115, so it will run the well pump and AC.

I think you really need to take a look at your breaker panel on a day your wife is at the store and figure out what loads you can turn off without really affecting life in a serious way. I would be really surprised if you need more than 10kW. if you exceed that, there is flat out a lot of waste going on at your place that you might want to look into.

One of the best places on the east coast is Diesel Generators for Home Power or Off-Grid Electricity

This listing of theirs
Kubota 9,875 Watt Diesel Generator
is for a 9.875kW Kubota based generator. That is 3x what I have available. 1800rpm. Their base price is $5600. Careful about how many options you add, you can double the price. If you have a tractor and can move a 55gal drum, that is how I would manage the fuel, and you can use the same container to fuel your other vehicles. No need to spend $1500 on an integral tank. The genset would run a very long time on 55gal. 3/4 load is 0.6 gal/hr - 14.4 gal/day or 91hrs on 55 gal at 3/4 load. Honestly, it is hard to see how you could even manage 3/4 load unless you have 3 split AC's cooling the place year round...

 

[Garycw]

I explained to wife in a emergency, you go into emergency usage, not life as usual. That may be choosing running fridge & freezer over clothes dryer, cooking on grill etc. I would already be in solar hot water w/ back up if in fla full time. If your able to put a pool in, should be able to bury a 500 gal tank. Another nice thing about propane is it doesn't take power to fill tanks, or to even pick up 20-30 gal tanks when stations aren't pumping because of pwr outage. Are you allowed to have above ground diesel tanks? If near waterway there could be EPA and other local codes to consider.

 

[westcliffe01]

I have not been too clear on loads, but there was mention of a 2.5 ton AC.

With reference to this website Air conditioning and heat pump loads on a generator
a 3 ton ac would be a 9kw starting load and a 3kw running load. The simplest way to handle that would be to start the generator and then the first load that you apply from the house after switching over the transfer switch would be the AC. Then I would adjust the thermostat in such a way to make the AC run continuous, then you have a constant 3kw load which will be good for a 10kw generator.

Then from that base load the generator would have no problem handling any other load you should need for the house.

There is no logical rational for trying to run everything in the house simultaneously.

I think the mere fact that your wife would have water, flushing toilets, AC to cool off and lights and without having to listen to a screaming 3600rpm gas generator, she would quickly concede that life is good and you were wise not to waste money on a ridiculous size generator.

For future benefit, next time something in your AC needs replacing, get a variable speed DC compressor. It will save you money and does not have the ridiculous starting load, so now your 10kw generator would be too big again....

 

[s219]

Be sure to take a look at all the offerings available from Central Maine Diesel (Central Maine Diesel Generators | Diesel Generators | Triple-Fuel Generators | Propane/Natural Gas Generators). I bought a 20kW (22kW surge) Isuzu diesel there for about $7500, and they also have a bunch of Kubota diesel units. They had the best selection and prices when I was shopping in 2013.

I think 30kW units are way too big for what you describe. A good big heavy diesel can handle electrical startup loads pretty well, more than the surge capacity would suggest. Plus, you can install a soft start kit on your HVAC compressor (or other large motor equipment) to really lower the startup requirement, so that the generator doesn't have to be abnormally sized just for one piece of equipment. I think my geothermal system is rated for 30kW to startup, but with the soft start kit that goes down under 15kW, and the generator handles it without a hiccup. To be honest, I think I am oversized even at 20kW, but based on pricing and fuel consumption, there was no real downside to going with the larger generator. The particular Isuzu I bought burns about the same amount of fuel running at 12kW load compared to smaller generators running near their peak load.

Wetstacking is a concern in theory, but I have seen no indication of that problem with my unit. Even running under no load, the exhaust temperature is plenty hot.

For more info, you can see my generator thread here:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...1kw-standby-generator-project.html?highlight=

 

[BigCountry1689]

I explained to wife in a emergency, you go into emergency usage, not life as usual. That may be choosing running fridge & freezer over clothes dryer, cooking on grill etc. I would already be in solar hot water w/ back up if in fla full time. If your able to put a pool in, should be able to bury a 500 gal tank. Another nice thing about propane is it doesn't take power to fill tanks, or to even pick up 20-30 gal tanks when stations aren't pumping because of pwr outage. Are you allowed to have above ground diesel tanks? If near waterway there could be EPA and other local codes to consider.

..

I have explained those things, but few conciliations were made.

Aside from the wife,

I can have up to 125 Gal tank before EPA becomes an issue which is what I have currently and pools are not an option either unless large quantities of fill are brought in. I live below sea level on the outer rim of Lake Okeechobee.

 

[davesl708]

I can look at it tomorrow.

Your electrician calculated your load based on using the full 200 amp capacity of your panel. That puts you at the 27kw to 31kw requirement.
Your wife wants the whole house functioning as normal.
Diesel will store for a long time with some Power Service or similar additive.
A non-turbo engine will be the more economical and trouble free.
With the frequency of use you stated wet-stacking should be minimal.
You should be able to find a 25kw generator that would handle everything. Not everything will start up at the same time so inrush should not exceed the 25kw.

 

[BigCountry1689]

Thank you all for all you information, and saving me some money.

The following is the direction I think I will go after info received and research throughout the evening.

I can purchase a new Yang-Dong Perkins 18KW for $5,885 (5% Cash Disc.) with $900 for additional bottom mount fuel tank. I like the mounted fuel tank a little better as it comes with the pallet fork mounts already and makes moving if ever needed easier. This is a non-turbo unit that will run at about .52 gal an hour at half load. and has a 1 yr. pars warranty and free shipping. In addition I will purchase a load shedding transfer switch which will allow the assignment of primary and secondary loads for the "just in case" scenario where I might exceed my wattage. This should put me just under $8000 with install excluding first fill up. I am thinking the smaller unit will prevent wet stacking and allow her to use reasonable appliances and misc. household items. I converted the whole house to LED in November down to the range hood lights so my total light wattage for every light in the house is 240 watts and that includes the exterior lighting. TV's are all LED so really the big items are just appliances. But she can cook with a crock pot or range and be fine.

 

[davesl708]

sounds like a good plan.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

I have a whole house 18kw generator powered by diesel...

I don't think I could pull 10kw out of it, if I tried, but I wanted an over size generator, "just in case"... SO, with my small 3 or 4kw loads, I've NEVER had any wet stacking! I've NEVER had any diesel issues, and I don't put ANYTHING in my diesel...

What are you guys running to get this wet stacking? A bunch of old diesels ?? NONE of mine do it even if light loaded for hours.

You guys running light loads on YOUR modern tractors, are they wet stacking on you??

The last diesel I owned that wet stacked was my old D-7 CAT, of many years ago. The last diesels I saw wet stacking, were a friends older john deere tractors...

I'd take a diesel whole house gen set every time, diesel stores just fine for me...

BTW, a couple years ago, a big storm hit waaaaay south of here and propane company's would NOT take any new customers and would only deliver 100 gallons at a time, and then ONLY if you were completely out, and it was in the winter! (think home heat) They all sited the same thing, the storm caused a month long shortage!!

It's pretty easy for ME to control how much diesel I have on hand and when I get it....and YES my house has a propane furnace, but I heat with wood so I'm NOT dependent on the propane man, OR his expensive fuel!

SR

 

[Garycw]

sounds like a good plan.

+1 on that and main thing is the wife's happy too

 

[Agvg]

Over a prolonged period, this condition can seriously degrade engine performance.

Why should an 100% working diesel engine spit out unburned diesel? And what causes the degrade in performance?

The only reason for a diesel to spit out unburned fuel is loss of compression in a cylinder, but its tru that they often can spit out water an sot from the exhaust but that is just condense water from the exhaust system and not from the engine.

 

[Gary Fowler]

My only concern with propane is #1 getting it when a storm hits, They say they will come but you don't know for sure I am not a priority. Next is that my code does not allow for above ground tanks and I sit like most of Florida in a swamp.

I have not fully researched the load shedding controllers but I think they are an option with the generators I looked at.

The controllers all have pre programmed run cycles in them, and I thought about the fuel issue but was figuring a good stabilizer and biocide should resolve that. And with the amount of time I would be operating, it shouldn't be an issue.

Still researching though, If I can find a propane system I feel comfortable with it might be on the table.

You are right about the fuel, biocide is likely all you would need and even that is not needed if you keep the fuel clean. I have a diesel tank that I have been using for 6 years and absolutely no water in it BUT it is stored inside a closed building (boat shed) so temps are not fluctuating rapidly like one stored outside in the sunlight. I have never heard of diesel de-stabilizing with age to the point of not running in an engine. Keep to your plan of using diesel, it will run longer on a gallon of fuel and you can store large quantities of it without worrying about gas leaks and fires and most likely the engine will last much longer.

I think you will find that it is much cheaper to install a load shedding transfer switch than to upgrade your genset to full capacity of your house. There is very little likelihood that you will need to run everything at once in your house. A 20KW genset will run just about all of your house easily if you just do a little bit of management and the load shedding transfer switch will keep you from overloading the system if you or other members of the family forget and decide to run the AC while using the oven to bake, and the range top to cook all while running a bathtub full of water at the same time.
Remember, you will be fueling the genset regardless of the power you are using. Even though it may not be loaded to the max, the larger the unit the more fuel it will use, even at 0 load.

I cant believe the County requires underground propane storage, most places outlawed underground tanks 50 years ago. I can see some harshly regulated sub-divisions (one reason I would never live in one) with such a by-law made by idiots who look at aesthetics more than practicality and safety making such rules.

 

[Gary Fowler]

One more thing, it is usually best to locate the genset close to the breaker panel and hopefully it is the most distance from your bedroom because it is going to be a bit noisy even if it has a sound insulated panel around it. Setting it close to the breaker panel will save you a lot of money in wiring cost, however at $10K purchase cost of the genset, a couple hundred in wire cost is a small % increase in total price. So if you need to put the genset further from the house to eliminate some noise, I would say go for it. You also want to put it where it can easily be serviced for fuel and oil changes.