MF 35 with Z134 engine - Oil pressure Issues

[drs1023]

I just finished a complete rebuild of the engine in my 1961 MF35 - .010/.010 crank,
rebuilt rods, new clutches, oil pump rebuilt, carb kit, etc. Fired up on the
2nd turn of the engine, but ZERO oil pressure (new gauge and line). My service
manual didn't mention packing the pump with Vaseline or grease, but should should
I now drop the pan and do this task? I ran it less than 30 seconds, so damage will
be minimal. I removed the gauge and blew back into the tube - no oil in the tube
at all. Any suggestion will be appreciated.

Ron

 

[murphy1244]

I just finished a complete rebuild of the engine in my 1961 MF35 - .010/.010 crank,
rebuilt rods, new clutches, oil pump rebuilt, carb kit, etc. Fired up on the
2nd turn of the engine, but ZERO oil pressure (new gauge and line). My service
manual didn't mention packing the pump with Vaseline or grease, but should should
I now drop the pan and do this task? I ran it less than 30 seconds, so damage will
be minimal. I removed the gauge and blew back into the tube - no oil in the tube
at all. Any suggestion will be appreciated.

Ron

Is there a bearing that needs a hole lined up or something for oil to pass thru?

 

[drs1023]

The bearings align by the notches on each end. I couldn't put them in backwards. Thank.
Ron

 

[murphy1244]

The bearings align by the notches on each end. I couldn't put them in backwards. Thank.
Ron

How about the top of the engine. I remember something similar on here a couple years ago. Do a search in the bar above the page.

 

[Jerry/MT]

I just finished a complete rebuild of the engine in my 1961 MF35 - .010/.010 crank,
rebuilt rods, new clutches, oil pump rebuilt, carb kit, etc. Fired up on the
2nd turn of the engine, but ZERO oil pressure (new gauge and line). My service
manual didn't mention packing the pump with Vaseline or grease, but should should
I now drop the pan and do this task? I ran it less than 30 seconds, so damage will
be minimal. I removed the gauge and blew back into the tube - no oil in the tube
at all. Any suggestion will be appreciated.

Ron

Did you rebuild the pump? The Z series Continentals have a real weak sister oil pump. The pick up tube could have seal leak or a crack so the pump won't pick up oil. Did you check out the relief valve on the pump? It could be stuck open. Did you assemble the engine with assembly lube? Thirty seconds is a short time to pick up oil from the sump in an empty lube system and pressurize it. I would recommend you remove the spark plugs and motor the engine with the starter to see if you get some oil pressure. It's a good idea to do that on a re-build because you don't put significant loads on the bearings with no compression in the cylinders and you have to fill the oil filter etc.

 

[drs1023]

Newly rebuilt pump - the set screw backed out on the old one. Re-drilled and loc-tite in the new set screw. That's what got everything & caused the rebuild in the first place. New plunger & spring in the relief valve. I TIG welded up the plate for the pump to fill in the gouge caused by the old set screw, then flattened it back out on a surface grinder in our machine shop at work. Assembly lube on all surfaces as well.

My first mistake was not leaving the spark plugs out to prime the pump - I always do, but my old age is catching up with me (I retired end of January) & having rebuilt a coupla' hundred engines from a dozen manufacturers over the last 40+ years . . . well, I shoulda' remembered the priming part!!! I honestly did NOT expect the engine to start after only a couple of turns, either. I was watching the oil gauge and it really surprised me to hear the engine start so soon.

I dropped the oil pan this afternoon. The rubber seal for the pickup doesn't appear cracked, but I didn't get a new one with the gasket set, so I'll match one at the lical parts house. I think I will also double check my pump rebuild specs. I will just re-do the pump if lash and clearances are not spot on. Again, should I pack with Vaseline? Service manual doesn't say. Thanx

 

[Jerry/MT]

Newly rebuilt pump - the set screw backed out on the old one. Re-drilled and loc-tite in the new set screw. That's what got everything & caused the rebuild in the first place. New plunger & spring in the relief valve. I TIG welded up the plate for the pump to fill in the gouge caused by the old set screw, then flattened it back out on a surface grinder in our machine shop at work. Assembly lube on all surfaces as well.

My first mistake was not leaving the spark plugs out to prime the pump - I always do, but my old age is catching up with me (I retired end of January) & having rebuilt a coupla' hundred engines from a dozen manufacturers over the last 40+ years . . . well, I shoulda' remembered the priming part!!! I honestly did NOT expect the engine to start after only a couple of turns, either. I was watching the oil gauge and it really surprised me to hear the engine start so soon.

I dropped the oil pan this afternoon. The rubber seal for the pickup doesn't appear cracked, but I didn't get a new one with the gasket set, so I'll match one at the lical parts house. I think I will also double check my pump rebuild specs. I will just re-do the pump if lash and clearances are not spot on. Again, should I pack with Vaseline? Service manual doesn't say. Thanx

it is obvious to me that you are an experienced hand at this and you are approaching the problem very systematically. I applaud you for that!

If the pump is in specs for its internal clearances than it shouldn't require packing with vasoline or grease. If you want to do it while you have it off, by all means do it. It won't hurt anything. The Ford N series folks use that technique but I'm not too familiar with the details of their lube system since the Z Continentals and the flathead Ford's are quite different engines.

The pump should prime itself unless the seal is bad on the pick up or the pickup tube is cracked. Apparently you inspected the pick up parts and they are not leaking as far as you can tell. The only other possibility is a weak spring on the relief valve but even then with cold oil you should have some oil pressure even with an open relief valve. I would try cranking it with spark plugs out for up to a minute at a time and see if it develops pressure. The motor will spin pretty fast with no compression load on it and the pump will really push oil volume out at the higher cranking rpms.
The only other thing that comes to mind and I don't even know if it is true for the Z Series Continental. Some lube systems have a welsh plug on the oil gallery and during a major overhaul if that is left out, the lube system won't pressurize. I'm almost sure that's a Ford issue but I'm not sure and I don't want to send you on a wild goose chase. I just mention it for completeness for the low oil pressure problem.

 

[grm61]

Rather than running the engine or turning it over you could run the oil pump with a drill motor and not risk damage.

 

[drs1023]

Jerry & grm-The only thing I have figured out so far is that the rubber grommet in the tube us NOT available separate from the tube. $45 for the tube, but that part is OK. I pulled the pump to remove the plate and found nothing out of sorts. As stated, I welded up the small score marks from the old pump and surface ground it flat & replaced the button & spring in the PRV. Not really a way to run the pump by drill due to the helical gear being the only thing protruding out of the pump. I've always checked for vacuum leaks by blowing smoke back through the system. I did that, and the smoke came out at the oil pump, so no restrictions. I've decided to order another pump rebuild kit and start over. I appreciate all your comments and suggestions. I will post again when I solve the issue.

 

[grm61]

The bearings align by the notches on each end. I couldn't put them in backwards. Thank.
Ron

What about cam bearings?
Where they replaced?
I am not familiar with the motor you are working on, so just throwing things out there...best of luck

By the way good call on bearings murph....
I'm not a engine guy, but I think its cam bearings where it could be easy get a oiling hole off.

 

[grm61]

Are you confident the oil pressure gauge is operational?
If you are willing to risk a few more seconds on the rotating assembly you could unhook the line at the port on the motor, pull the coil wire off, crank it for 3 or 4 seconds and see if any oil comes out.

There is not much air volume in the line....but...bad gauge + air in the line???

Might eliminate that before another tear down.

I know you what you are doing, just throwing more things out there to muddle your brain

 

[Kenneth S]

I pack the pump with white lithium grease, also make sure the aluminum gear on the front of the oil pump turns the shaft for the oil pump. The continental does not have cam bearings the cam runs in bores of the block, and there isn't a way to turn the oil pump externally. It's really a simple engine. You can click on the link in my signature for the oil system mods I did on my Z134.

 

[grm61]

I pack the pump with white lithium grease, also make sure the aluminum gear on the front of the oil pump turns the shaft for the oil pump. The continental does not have cam bearings the cam runs in bores of the block, and there isn't a way to turn the oil pump externally. It's really a simple engine. You can click on the link in my signature for the oil system mods I did on my Z134.

I do believe you are the one the OP should be talking to:thumbsup:

 

[drs1023]

Grm6- I bought all new gages & made a new line for the oil sender, so I think that's OK. I removed the gage, and nothing came out the line, so it's definitely not pumping. And Kenneth, that's pretty impressive engineering, and I agree that a cage around that spin off is needed. That wouldn't last long in rough bush hogging areas.
One other thing-my cover plate has a sunken area which looks like a machined in area about .030" deep and 5/8" x 5/8" in a radius. It's offset a little toward the bottom gear, so I left that open area when I welded up the score marks in the plate. I've been inside some Ford, A/C, and Farmall engines back in the day on the farm, but this is only the 2nd MF, and the first was for rings and bearings only around 25 years ago. My dad still uses that '57 TO 35 all the time. I was told yesterday that the cover plate should be perfectly flat inside, and I should get another cover plate. I ordered another rebuild kit, and I am going to make another cover plate from 5/16" plate and make sure it's good & flat. I will know more then.

 

[KYErik]

Does this engine have a spin on oil filter? If so, unscrew it to double check that there was no oil pumping- it would have taken a few seconds to fill a dry engine/filter.

You can use an oil can and add some oil down the disconnected oil pressure sender tube or to the center port of the spin on oil filter fitting to get some more oil on the bearings before you spin the engine any more.

 

[drs1023]

Thank you for your suggestion-I did that already, but haven't reassembled the pump yet (waiting on parts). I squirted oil down the gage tube, but it runs out at the pump location right now since the pump is still off the engine. I upgraded the sending unit tube from the stock 1/8" to 1/4" so the oil ran down pretty good. This engine still has the cartridge filter canister.

 

[Kenneth S]

Making sure the plate that bolts to the pump is flat is always something to check with the continental Z series oil pump. I hate the continental pump so much that I actually considered running a very small external gear type hydraulic oil pump but there was no practical way to mount, and run it.

 

[drs1023]

I did undo the gage, but there was no oil when I turned the engine over. I found a used pump at a decent price so I will have something to compare rebuilding my pump. Remember, I got this tractor in boxes and baskets with a fair share of missing parts. I may have done something wrong on the rebuild. Never have before as I recall, but anything's possible.

 

[Jerry/MT]

Thank you for your suggestion-I did that already, but haven't reassembled the pump yet (waiting on parts). I squirted oil down the gage tube, but it runs out at the pump location right now since the pump is still off the engine. I upgraded the sending unit tube from the stock 1/8" to 1/4" so the oil ran down pretty good. This engine still has the cartridge filter canister.

The gauge doesn't have to have oil to it. There just has to be oil pressure to the point on the block where the tube fitting is. There can be air in the rest of the line and the pressure at the gauge( assuming the gauge is working and accurate) will be correct.

 

[drs1023]

Thanks, Jerry. I removed the gage for that reason. I wanted to be sure there was oil moving through the system.