The Confusion of Tractor Hydraulics Terms and the Quality of Different Choices.

[AxleHub]

" Its never more than 2 that they describe in scut or cut sizes."

Not true as Kioti and Kubota can do 3 factory remotes on some models.
I think you're starting to confuse yourself..

Murph, in reading many threads where valves and 3rd function and diverters are included in the thread . . I find often that users talking about what they needed to add to get the implement operational . . are making unclear statements about the 3rd function or remote or diverter. I think often that readers . . especiallt newer users . . don't know what to ask for at dealers or customizer shops. They don't realize the pluses and minuses of each or aren't able to interpret the writer's correctness.

As an example: one thread had a op that had added a grapple to his unit by the dealer. The op had had problrms with his "3rd function control" after 5 months and took it back to the dealer and was told the electrical components had a 90 day warranty and could be repaired/replaced but not under warranty.

Well a couple readers chimed in that they would not get a 3rd function valve then . . but rather they would get a rear remote instead. But the op seemed to be describing a diverter . . not a 3rd function vakve . . and no one seemed to question it but me ?

I'm not saying I'm sharp on this subject . . but ir seems like users are often not clear on the differenxes and then readers are lwarning incorrectly as well.

With the rapid growth in scuts and small cuts and the desire expansion for tillers and grapples etc. . . it just seems like the implement cobtrol mechanisms often are not clearly defined and clearly chosen.

Jmho

 

[LD1]

A 3rd function and diverter "can" both have switches and electrical components.

Basically, a diverter and electric third function are BOTH electrical solenoid valves controlled by a switch to direct fluid. The differences is the diverter uses an existing circuit for its supply....usually the curl function. And a 3rd function gets its own independent supply from the power beyond.

You "can" have a third function that is just a manual valve, more like how the remotes operate. But most opt for electric over hydraulic.

So that said....look at the pros and cons of each, assuming cost is similar

True electric/hydraulic third function......
Pros: Can operate multiple functions at once
Cons: No speed control

Diverter:
Pros: speed control
Cons: Cannot operate it at the same time as the function it is pulling supply from

An electric third function is either On or off. It would be like operating your loader joystick only in the fastest possible way for the RPM you are running. Unless you install other flow valves or restrictors. There is no feathering of the control like there is with the joystick. THAT is why I think alot choose to go with a diverter setup. Not often you need to run both functions at once.

Lets say you have a frame mounted....or even a loader mounted plow, and want to use the loaders joystick to raise and lower as well as angle. Diverter is the logical choice, since you wont be using curl anyway, and left-right motion of the joystick that curls/dumps can correspond with the plow angle. Same way for a blower chute rotator. But something like a loader mounted post hole digger, that you want lift and curl controls while drilling to maintain a straight hole, you are better off running the auger off a 3rd function or rear remote.

 

[davrow]

One of your questions was if "3rd function" was a thing or a generic term. It is totally generic.

For the most popular tractors on this forum, they come with a bucket.
Function 1: lift and lower
Function 2: curl and dump

Any, and ALL additional functions are called "3rd" function no matter how many you actually add.

 

[davrow]

Also, diverters and "true 3rd function" valves are both still valves. The only (meaningful) difference is how they are operated.

Since they accomplish the same ends people needed a way to differentiate between them, thus "diverter" and "true 3rd function". But they are both 3rd function valves.

Or spools? A whole new topic for confusion over precise definitions vs how many folks here use the term! :laughing:

 

[GoldenCityMuse]

I agree w/ axlehub. I came to this site less than 2 months ago, and had a lot of confusion about 3rd function vs rear remote vs diverter vs TNT etc.

it would be nice for those of us who have no experience in tractors if this was well expained. k0ua made a good start, along with LD1.

I now understand that FEL's always come w/ 2 functions; raise/lower the entire bucket, and tilt/dump the bucket at any height. Then a 3rd function i sneeded to add a hyd thumb or grapple.

We could have the same with a top - N - Tilt on the 3 point hitch. are there 2, 3 or 4 functions for it? And what is needed?

 

[LD1]

One of your questions was if "3rd function" was a thing or a generic term. It is totally generic.

For the most popular tractors on this forum, they come with a bucket.
Function 1: lift and lower
Function 2: curl and dump

Any, and ALL additional functions are called "3rd" function no matter how many you actually add.

I disagree. And I think how the terminology is used here on TBN, what you say dont make sense with how we use the terms.

Rear remotes are not considered 3rd function. But by your logic, if you have a loader, and add a set or two of remotes, that makes them third functions. But what if the same tractor with remotes added dont have the loader (functions 1 and 2)?? Or what if the remotes were there first....does adding a loader later change the remotes magically to "3rd functions"?

A diverter isnt called a 3rd function, because while it does offer a 3rd function, it cannot operate all 3 functions at once, whereas a 3rd function can operate all at once.

Top-N-Tilt's are normally ran off rear remotes. It is a hydraulic cylinder in place of your toplink for easier adjustment. And a cylinder in place of a sidelink for tilt adjustment. (Tilting a blade a bit to do ditching is an example.) To have both would require two sets of remotes.

"Typically", remotes power anything hydraulic off the back of the tractor. Thus "rear remotes". Things like TNT, a logsplitter, hydraulic angle blade, etc.

3rd function or diverter is the two choices for operating additional things off the front. Again, 3rd function allows you to use BOTH loader functions AND your third function at the same time, but at the cost of a few additional lines to be ran, and no speed control. And can be more complicated to hook up especially if you are already using the loader PB port to power a set of rear remotes or two.

The diverter is a little easier to install with fewer lines, and offers the feathering control of your loader joystick, but at the cost of not being able to operate the curl at the same time.

 

[CalG]

Just in perspective, "Remotes" are in contrast to internal or integral, such as a typical three point hitch cylinder would be.
Even though the 3PH lift assembly very well may be a bolt on.

On the Fordson, the 3 point lift is entirely self contained with it's own pump, cylinder, and control valve. Driven from a top of case external PTO, it even provides a tap for single acting external hydraulics such as a jack or dump trailer. (The lift arms need to be chained down when using the tap if you don't want to wait for the lift cylinder to cycle stop to stop ;-)

 

[davrow]

I disagree.

Rear remotes are not considered 3rd function.

Everyone is welcome to disagree with me, LD1.

I really do think most people call a grapple a "3rd function" whether they have a loader or not. Now, I run my grapple off a rear remote.

What would you like me to call that valve? Won't it confuse newbies more to have a rear remote operating front end equipment than to simply refer to it as a 3rd function when used for the grapple and a rear remote when used with the TnT?

I admit I don't think as the majority of folks do, but this makes sense to me. Would you like me to edit my post so as to not confuse our neophytes further? I'm willing.

( by the way, JJ doesn't agree with my phraseology either. )

 

[LD1]

If you are running a grapple, or anything else off the rear remotes, I prefer them be called as they are......rear remotes. As I think THAT is less confusing than calling it a 3rd function.

Imagine a newbie sees you have a grapple lowered via 3rd function valve and wants to do the same. Then you have to get to explain that you are running your grapple off the rear remotes, and just calling it a 3rd function.

To run anything on the front off the rear remotes isn't confusing at all. It is a remote valve by definition, located at the rear of the tractor.

You can have front remotes as well (to further confuse the masses).

What makes a 3rd function and diverter different is they are controlled with a button usually, located on the joystick of the loader. Thus 3rd function meaning you have controlls to 3 functions right there at the joystick. All 3 can operate at the same time with a 3rd function valve, or you can have a diverter, which permits the operation of two at a time. (But not the same two tied to the diverter.)

I didn't make up the terminology. But understand it and am trying to explain it. Back to the point of you calling your grapple control CIA rear remotes as a 3rd function....vhen searching for kits and parts...look at what the sellers/mfg call things. Rear remotes, 3rd function kits, and diverter kits are 3 different things

 

[stuckmotor]

And the LORD said, Behold, the people [is] one, and they have all one language;
and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

If we don't try to build a tower to Heaven. We may get this all worked out.